Unit Disc

[Frederick303]

Alan,

Here is a link to the auction:

Enfield B.S.A. #3 caliber .303 British : Bolt Action Rifles at GunBroker.com



So going down the pictures here is what indicates

1) it is a Irish issue rifle

2) the disc has been added:


1) Irish issue:

a) The action body has had the old serial number lined out and new one added, pre 1926 mod. So this work is pre 1926.

b) The new serial number is not the correct font for a BSA or Enfield rebuild from 1920 to 1925, they used a smaller more ornate font. It is the larger plain font used on the rifles re-numbered and supplied to Ireland in the 1921 to 1922 time period. That is the first definitive thing to me.

c) The same font is used on the bolt, which has been filed and remarked. Same is true for the Nosecap. Again a feature seen on Irish rifles.

d) The serial numbers were added by hand and not all that carefully (not a straight line). That is a feature seen on Irish rifles.

e) While of secondary importance, the rifle still has the stacking swivel, the Irish keep these in service till the end of issue. While not definitive, it is consistent with such issue.

f) No pre 1968 English export proofs, nor post 1986 importers markings. The Irish rifles were kind of unique as they did not go through the English proof houses in 1961, and were sent directly from Ireland to Interarms warehouse in Alexandria VA. There were some other lots of SMLE rifles that came in around that time that did not go through the UK, but they lack the features of the Irish rifles. That is the second definitive observation that leads me to believe the rifle is Irish.


2) The unit disc.

Because there was a ready supply of these available in south eastern PA since at least the early 1990s, ( I seem to recall the price was 3 dollars and .50~1 dollar for the screw back then) numerous Billy-Joe-Jim-Bob characters would buy them to fill the missing hole in their rifle, not understanding that the lack of same was a correct feature. As such I have seen a lot of rifles here in southeast PA and northern Delaware when I lived there that had added discs and always took a glass with me to examine the butts to see if the disc was added. I have seen many added ones and this one has that look. Here is what I assert it is added:

A) the lack of any other Indian markings. Typically when you see and Indian marked butt there is some other marking, canceled or not on the butt to indicate Indian issue and inspection.

B) When a unit disc has been installed for a long time and not disturbed, it takes on a certain look of tarnish/verdigris. This disc has some bright areas that look like someone did a wee bit of polish by the 10-36.

c) The gaps in the side of the disc. if you look carefully you can see on the lower side of the picture that there is a gap between the disc and the wood, not filled with old linseed oil and gunk. Almost like some one put the disc in recently........

D) Lastly the disc sits a wee bit proud of the wood on the bottom side, you do not see that generally on the ones that have been installed for 70 years. Further if it had been installed that way, one would expect on the top side there would be some gunk build up on the top of the disc and the bottom side would be the side showing the bright patches.


Of course I could be wrong, but that is my call on the rifle.

[Alan de Enfield]

Thanks for that in-depth breakdown, does that all mean that it is an 'as issued Irish rifle' or that it is 'humped' ?

I must take issue about the English Export proof marks (in paragraph F) - England does not Export mark its firearms, it 'proves' them for domestic use only, if an importing country requires markings then the importer will arrange them, not the UK proof houses.

[Peter Laidler]

Of marking discs........ When I was researching the little No4T book, the old H&H factory, now long since closed and cleared - had literally 5" x 6" or so cardboard boxes and boxes, full to the brim of old used marking discs. These had been taken off P'14's that had been refurbished there prior to the No4T contract coming on stream. These had been used many times, marked back and front as wired on markers for No4T's being converted. They had loads of previous unit markings on them plus the more recent H&H ID markings. I only too a box of about 500 but wish I'd taken the lot now.

[Frederick303]

Alan,

I see your point, I refer/ locally call them "export proof marks", as along with the BNP proof there is also an added "ENGLAND" stamp on the 1954 to 1968 proofed arms sent to the US of A. When arms were exported later, such as some of the target rifles ones sees over here, the proof marks do not contain the "England" stamp. I am referring to arms such as UK commercially proofed T4, Omark and M63 target rifles. I suppose it is sort of a US collector comment, kind of like the "king screw" which Capt. Laidler finds irritating.

Rifle looks like a legit Irish Free State rifle with an added disc to me. The marked disc was sort of puzzling to me, as I have never seen a Irish rifle with the disc hole that was lacking a disc. The only thing that would help disprove my assertion is taking off the rear handguard and looking at the barrel reinforce data. If the barrel is dated later than 1922 but does not have the FF marking, I am wrong, unless it is a 1956 dated barrel, in which case it will lack that marking. If the barrel is dated 1918 to 1921, then I would not expect the FF marking.

If Irish the right hand side should also have the barrel re-serialed in the same manner and the old number, canceled out if an original barrel, thought the P marking sort of indicates it is likely a replacement barrel.

[MilitaryTorch]

Thanks guys - I'll ask him to see if he can get a sharper pic of the XXX area.

Hi Alan.
I will have the rifle in my hands hopefully by the end of this week.
Then I will be able to post additional pictures.

Thank you.
Steve

[Alan de Enfield]

Following Fredericks "detective work" it looks as if you may have bought something a little bit unusual / special / collectable. I know there are many collectors of 'Irish Stuff' and a FF rifle would be near the top of their list.

[Peter Laidler]

Especially an Irish rifle that had been to Ferozpore Arsenal and served with the Punjab Regiment prior to going to Ireland.............

[Frederick303]

Capt. Laidler

Do you think the disc was original to the rifle?

No offense will be taken if you think I am wrong, I could well be. I would just be curious what made you see it differently.

I should mention the serial number also falls in the expected Irish re-numbered range.

[Alan de Enfield]

Capt. Laidler

Do you think the disc was original to the rifle?

No offense will be taken if you think I am wrong, I could well be. I would just be curious what made you see it differently.

I should mention the serial number also falls in the expected Irish re-numbered range.

I think you have just been subjected to a bit of 'British humour'

[Peter Laidler]

Alan has got it Fred. Just a bit of British humour. As a soldier of 'the troubles' era I stay well clear of anything with an Irish connection. My only observation was regarding the validity of the disc marking which was adequately verified by jrhead.

Incidentally, while we always retain our old ranks as a common courtesy, I abandoned all of that stuff the day I took my uniform off for the last time and am now a plain Mr......