My No4 T (complete fake)

[Surpmil]

I would agree that 'replica' better describes the situation here of jsne's rifle & scope. 'Fake' suggests a replica created with the intent to deceive (usually for monetary gain), at least, it conveys those vibes to me, even if it is not explicit in the word.

I also do not see any reason not to build 'replicas' if one is so minded to do, so long as it is not with the intent of defrauding. There are lots of reasons to do so; the high prices of originals, the desire not to wear out a rare original rifle, & so on. I also accept the concerns that some express that half a dozen sales down the line the rifle may be passed off as original, but whilst it is a serious issue I do not think we should start trying to demonise people who wish to make up rifles. We (supposedly) still live in free societies......

Most people who get burnt these days do so through their own laziness; there is ample high quality information on what real examples of desirable rifles should look like, both on line & in the standard texts, & to be honest, most fakes I see really aren't THAT good.

They fool people who couldn't be bothered to do their homework..........

Quite agree Roger, though I think we probably have to draw the line at identical replication of original markings, unless qualified by some others that make their status clear.

The Garand fans seem to happily buy and sell refurbs and perfect "replicas" all day long without a cheep from anyone, so not sure what all the fuss is about with other arms.

Heaven knows there is so much information on so many subjects available now so easily there isn't much excuse for ignorance about anything a person WANTS to learn about.

Assuming they have the wits to sift the wheat from the chaff, as the saying goes.

And yet a good proportion of the population seem to be more ignorant than they have ever been before.

[RobD]

For light relief, look at the abundant stock here
Adolf Hitler I Page

[Roger Payne]

Thanks both Robs! Of course, surpmil, I concur with your caveat about markings - I was just referring to the general principle of building replicas.

And thanks RobD. Now I know where to go for a fancy salad bowl!

But to get back on track, jsne's rifle is a little peach & shows just what a skilled worker he is. I wish he lived a bit closer to me!

[Jsne]

Hi all
I am proud of al your nice comments of my work with this rifle.
And I agreed with most worried members as well.
Maby just a silly idea?
How about a "sticky" about this :
Known fakes
Replicas
Rebuild sporters
Other rebuilds
Etc
Members could report there rifles if they want to.
You could whrite about your project.
You could tell about the rifle you rebuild or build.
How do you get the parts needed?
Other members could have good use of it.
And most importend wee will register not originals.

Maby too much work. Just an idea

I will gladly start up with this one

Or maby it is not in this forum.

Jsne

[enfield303t]

Maybe "Replica" is better terminology for this project jsne.............

wats dat u sed Gil!

I guess in this world where we are all expected to water down to the lowest denominator in everything we think, do or say "replica" is probably politically correct.

"A replica is an exact reproduction, such as of a painting, as it was executed by the original artist or a copy or reproduction, especially one on a scale smaller than the original. A replica is a copying closely resembling the original concerning its shape and appearance."

Problem it is still a fake!

not genuine; counterfeit.
"fake designer clothing"
synonyms: forgery, counterfeit, copy, pirate(d) copy, sham, fraud, hoax, imitation, mock-up, dummy, reproduction;

As I said before, once this "T" leaves the hands of the builder there is no guarantee of what will happen, is there?

[Roger Payne]

I agree with you about the risks down the line, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself.

Many people would love but cannot afford a real one (of whatever it may be we happen to be discussing), so a replica/copy/fake (call it what you will) may be all that they can achieve. I'm not going to discourage them. We might just as well get used to the fact that these things exist. As mentioned before they're generally pretty easy to spot if you do even a modicum of homework before you buy.

[enfield303t]

I agree with you about the risks down the line, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it myself.

Many people would love but cannot afford a real one (of whatever it may be we happen to be discussing), so a replica/copy/fake (call it what you will) may be all that they can achieve. I'm not going to discourage them. We might just as well get used to the fact that these things exist. As mentioned before they're generally pretty easy to spot if you do even a modicum of homework before you buy.

Roger, trust me I am not going to lose any sleep over this one as I know where there a couple more legit ones are so this one will never cross my path.

There's at least one set of MP (rcmp) stamps out there and it takes nothing to make a fake one if the purchasers is not aware of the serial number list that exists. A new collector might not be aware of the serial no's and think he better take the opportunity to get one that's in his hands. There are fake marked MP No4's out there as I write this.

How many sets of Wehrmacht stamp are out there, and there are plenty.

The issue is no one has Captain Laidler, Warren or a few others with them to check every one they see.

It has been discussed previously on this site about giving out too much information that some unscrupulous person could use to build a fake and sell it as a legit.

[CINDERS]

Yes and there is also a set of fake TIPTAFT stamps out there as well with unscrupulous person/s stamping slider WWI AIF hat badges so instead of getting 2 figures for them they command 3 figures, you wont stop counterfeiters or copies being made just got to get used to it.

Besides all they have to do as Roger says research I mean some one with out any knowledge of fire arms or owning one says to themselves "I think I will buy a Sniper T" then just go and buy one willy nilly if it is to bl**dy cheap then a rat is smelt for sure, there is enough on the web and other forums out there that also contain enough info on them that a person would have to be blind and deaf to get a faker.

I like what jsne has accomplished as it far exceeds what the average joe blow will and if it brings him pleasure with shooting his replica then more power to him, I'd be happy to have it for what it is and save any more wear and tear on my T as its the only one I have or will ever have infact I would have only shot it 5-6 times in 5 years.

[Roger Payne]

I agree with what you say enfield303t, but one sees this in all walks of collecting, & it's just down to human nature - there will always be a few bad 'uns around who are happy to try their hand at conning people. Fortunately they are massively outweighed by the 99% of decent folk on the scene; the ones who are happy to help, such as we have here on the forum.

You also raised another hoary old chestnut of not wanting to help the fakers by keeping marking & similar fine details relating to rare rifles a secret. I know it polarizes opinion, & it may be that being a medic (retired) my views have been influenced, but I have always leaned to the stance that even though we may be inadavertently helping fakers to do a better job by making public knowledge that, say, LB 4T's have a front pad with a radius at the front edge which butts up to the receiver ring, for example, the 99% of decent collectors deserve to know this little snippet of information. Maybe we are helping the 1% of fakers to get better, but then, what about the ethical duty to advance knowledge? Peter & Ian Skennerton wouldn't have written their books if they'd wanted to keep what they knew a secret. Or am I being overly pious?!? It just seems that the alternative is 'stuff everyone else, I'm in the know!'. We just have to stay on our toes to keep one step ahead of the ne'er do wells.

[Surpmil]

I agree with what you say enfield303t, but one sees this in all walks of collecting, & it's just down to human nature - there will always be a few bad 'uns around who are happy to try their hand at conning people. Fortunately they are massively outweighed by the 99% of decent folk on the scene; the ones who are happy to help, such as we have here on the forum.

You also raised another hoary old chestnut of not wanting to help the fakers by keeping marking & similar fine details relating to rare rifles a secret. I know it polarizes opinion, & it may be that being a medic (retired) my views have been influenced, but I have always leaned to the stance that even though we may be inadavertently helping fakers to do a better job by making public knowledge that, say, LB 4T's have a front pad with a radius at the front edge which butts up to the receiver ring, for example, the 99% of decent collectors deserve to know this little snippet of information. Maybe we are helping the 1% of fakers to get better, but then, what about the ethical duty to advance knowledge? Peter & Ian Skennerton wouldn't have written their books if they'd wanted to keep what they knew a secret. Or am I being overly pious?!? It just seems that the alternative is 'stuff everyone else, I'm in the know!'. We just have to stay on our toes to keep one step ahead of the ne'er do wells.

Yes, "stuff everyone else, I'm in the know". Then you drop dead and it's all lost and you might as well have played tiddlywinks with your time.

As for the fakers, it's been years, nay decades, and they haven't surfaced yet. So either no one is going to bother or they're still taking preparatory notes!