Lest we forget - canadian grave

[Seaspriter]

there were hundreds of thousands of men tied up on a bloody beach. It just blows your mind. Why did the Generals not see they had to breakout at all costs to get out of that awful killing ground

Gil, your point is right on. That "War to End All Wars" was probably the most horrible of wars. The Battles like the Somme or Passchendaele were nothing but UGLY. The Battle of the Somme saw 10,000 casualties/HOUR. Lloyd George wrote, "Passchendaele was indeed one of the greatest disasters of the war ... No soldier of any intelligence now defends this senseless campaign ...". Between the British and German forces at Passchendaele there were over 1/2 million casualties. The gunfire was so intense it was just a din.

But the larger issues still prevail -- the strategy and tactics of the generals in particular: why didn't they use tanks and aircraft better. At the Battle of Cambrai it was clearly demonstrated that entrenched defenses could be overrun by a surprise and a rapid attack by combined use of infantry, artillery, tanks and aircraft in attacks. The French Renault FT tank was a real beauty, but not used well by the British.

And of course, there is the largest issue of all: Why was the war fought in the first place? It wasn't good versus evil, like the second world war, or over economics or philosophy; maybe it was territory, but why didn't peace negotiations start earlier? The common answer as to "why" is "entangling alliances." I say it was people got caught in the frenzy of war -- sensibility got lost, lives meant little to the generals, and the old methods were slow to be replaced (unlike the second world war).

[Eaglelord17]

And of course, there is the largest issue of all: Why was the war fought in the first place? It wasn't good versus evil, like the second world war, or over economics or philosophy; maybe it was territory, but why didn't peace negotiations start earlier? The common answer as to "why" is "entangling alliances." I say it was people got caught in the frenzy of war -- sensibility got lost, lives meant little to the generals, and the old methods were slow to be replaced (unlike the second world war).

Two points, first off WWI I believe was mostly caused by the fact people wanted to go to war and expand there empires, nationalism was very strong and the idea of owning colonies was very popular. WWI could have easily been avoided, in fact early on just before the war started it looked like it was avoided. There was tons of negotiations before WWI to avoid it, I recommend looking at 'The Great War' channel on youtube to get a good idea of the extent of negotiations which were happening before the war began (it would be the earliest episodes).

WWI was a situation everyone was unprepared for. Looking back in hindsight it is easy to say they were stupid as the tactics that were to be developed in the war became the standard now, but if you look at it with a proper 19th century perspective you will see how hard it would have been to adapt to that style of warfare when literally everything you have been taught has become obsolete.

Secondly WWII was not a 'good and evil' war. It is the line most people are fed, but if you actually look at the objectives of the Axis powers, you will see that WWII was fought for mostly the same reasons WWI was. Creating a empire (or restoring one), being the primary reason for all Axis powers to fight. The Allies never even won WWII, we went to war to protect Poland's sovereignty, and when the war was over Poland still wasn't liberated.

[Seaspriter]

it is easy to say they were stupid as the tactics that were to be developed in the war became the standard now, but if you look at it with a proper 19th century perspective you will see how hard it would have been to adapt to that style of warfare when literally everything you have been taught has become obsolete.

I visited the Gettysburg National Park last summer to see where my great great grandfather fought for the Massachusetts 8th Regiment. Most of the same blunders made in 1863 were perpetuated in WWI, but to an even larger extent. WWI was a stalemate over a few miles of front for years; at least the American Civil War had more mobility.

WWII was not a 'good and evil' war. It is the line most people are fed, but if you actually look at the objectives of the Axis powers, you will see that WWII was fought for mostly the same reasons WWI was.

If you study psychopathy, quickly you come to realize the WWII was started and fought by the Axis powers for psychopathic motives more than anything else. Certainly any war can be justified by revisionist historians as being fought for economic reasons, but the reality is that empires and colonies and greed have existed since before Greco-Roman times but have not always resulted in war. Psychopathic behavior (which is evil by definition) was exhibited by Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Stalin, and later by Mao and the North Koreans. Whenever genocide shows up in war, it's the result of psychopathics in control. During the 20th century, over 100 million people died at the hands of the twisted minds of psychopaths. During WWII, the Allies fought a "Good War" against some of the most evil minds to team up in history. Certainly there were economics and empires, but during WWII Franklin Roosevelt pretty much made Churchill give up on a colonial strategy in return for US war support.

[Eaglelord17]

I visited the Gettysburg National Park last summer to see where my great great grandfather fought for the Massachusetts 8th Regiment. Most of the same blunders made in 1863 were perpetuated in WWI, but to an even larger extent. WWI was a stalemate over a few miles of front for years; at least the American Civil War had more mobility.

Many people like to bring up the American Civil War as a example of why didn't they learn from this. The reality is that based on later wars there was no need to. Look at the Franco-Prussian War for some very mobile warfare with the earlier technology. Other later wars such as the Boer War and such also happened to stick in the minds of the generals of the time for the need for long range combat. Probally the best chance anyone had to learn how to fight with the modern technology was the Russo-Japanese War. Dug in Russian troops were able to deal tons of damage to Japanese troops, but the lessons that could have been learned were ignored.

There were some mobile parts of WWI, the big two areas being the Russian front, and the war in Africa, everyone just seems to focus on the Western front however as it tends to be the area most people are interested in. Most people don't even remember the Balkans or the struggles that took place in that area.

If you study psychopathy, quickly you come to realize the WWII was started and fought by the Axis powers for psychopathic motives more than anything else. Certainly any war can be justified by revisionist historians as being fought for economic reasons, but the reality is that empires and colonies and greed have existed since before Greco-Roman times but have not always resulted in war. Psychopathic behavior (which is evil by definition) was exhibited by Hitler, Mussolini, Tojo, Stalin, and later by Mao and the North Koreans. Whenever genocide shows up in war, it's the result of psychopathics in control. During the 20th century, over 100 million people died at the hands of the twisted minds of psychopaths. During WWII, the Allies fought a "Good War" against some of the most evil minds to team up in history. Certainly there were economics and empires, but during WWII Franklin Roosevelt pretty much made Churchill give up on a colonial strategy in return for US war support.

WWII was just WWI fought with modern tactics. The goals were primarily to restore power to the Axis powers. Japans goal was to create the co-prosperity sphere, which is empire building. Italy's goals were to create a empire for itself out of Libya, Ethiopia, Egypt etc. Germany's goals were to retake land that was historically theres (Austria is German speaking, Czechslovakia being formerly part of Germany and Austria-Hungary, Poland being historically part of Germany, Austria-Hungary and Russia etc.). You could even argue that Germany never really intended to fight France that early (or at all, we will never know however).

All three of these nations were late to the empire game, both Germany and Italy being founded in the late 1800s and Japan not coming out of isolation until the late 1800s. Other nations that joined the Axis, (primarily Balkan nations) were all trying to get a bit ahead in the area as they all had land claims which hadn't been resolved (and likely never will be).

In terms of the Allies there goals were primarily to stop these nations from empire building as a fair bit of the land they wanted belonged to the Allies. The US is unique in that it stayed uninvolved for a long time, but that is also because they really didn't care about some other European war. It wasn't until the war was literally brought to your doorstep that the Americans joined.

Yes the Axis committed some atrocities, but there goals were not to commit atrocities, its just something they did on the side (in the case of the Germans, most people were unaware of the internment camps and what went on there). The allies were also guilty of some as well, though people don't like to put the spotlight on them. The extent is not nearly as great as say the Germans or the Japanese, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen on both sides. You have to remember when WWII started and carried on, the western world was unaware of any atrocities being committed, it wasn't until it was over that they were discovered.

[henry r]

the american oil embargo on japan certainly helped ensure america's inclusion in ww2.

[CINDERS]

Read the strategic bombing campaign against Germany in WWII bombing the Ruhr may have been a military objective but places like Dresden and Hamburg were more to the point as per Churchill and Bomber Harris's plan "Point Blank".

In the book I mentioned there is continual reference to bodies churned up by artillery fire after burial, his first night in the trenches he had to bury a soldier whose head had been blown off, another a friend who got the short straw in the first wave whilst old mate sat in a dugout waiting for their turn found his friend when he went forward with a piece of shrapnel through his tin hat from the top of his head and lodged in his jaw KIA.
They retired to the dugout again as the shelling was insane shortly an officer came up all disheveled and told them to retire as their whole front section well all the men had been wiped out, they had to balance in two feet of water in the trench to rub whale oil on their feet to stop the dreaded trench foot.
From what I have read and it has been quite a few books the tactics of the day seem to be out of touch generals with no grasp on how the way war had changed, not saying there were generals that were very competent in the art of war but others like say Haig, Pompey Elliot questionable to say the least then there was say Anthill at Galipolli who openly despised his superior and was responsible in part for the Nek fiasco.

Where 100's were wiped out in an area no bigger than 4 tennis courts pretty much shot down within a few yards of leaving the trench then there was Fromelles "The Australians suffered 5,533 casualties in one night. The Australian toll at Fromelles was equivalent to the total Australian casualties in the Boer War, Korean War and Vietnam War put together. It was a staggering disaster"
They were attacking a well defended elevated position that could observe all the the rear lines and preparations being made for the attack may as well have rung them up and said we will be over shortly get your ammo ready as we will advance nicely so you can cut us down.
And then the Somme Haigs great plan which cost the commonwealth armies 60,000 KIA/WIA on the first day and for paltry gains it is sickening to read these figures but it needs to be re-enforced of the unflinching devotion to duty, your mates and country is never forgotten by any generation.


It was a good thing Gil did and a fitting end to a young mans life "Lest We Forget"

[Eaglelord17]

It is insane to look at the casualties sustained in WWI, and even WWII. On August 22 1914 the French lost 27,000 people. This was the most casualties received by any single nation on a single day in WWI. The Royal Newfoundland Regiment in one day, the first day of the Somme, received a 90% casualty rate which had a terrible effect on the then colony of Newfoundland, as that was a significant portion of there male population.

These are the type of things that need to be remembered, and it is part of what I love about collecting milsurps. It is a tangible connection to the past, and it gives you a appreciation for what people did. There is nothing sadder than the thought of all those people who didn't return home, who never had the chance to grow up and have a family, to truly experience what there is in life. And it is for that reason I respect everyone who has/had the courage to serve, no matter what side they were on. No one thinks they are the bad guys, everyone wants to believe they are fighting for what is right.

[Gil Boyd]

Well said Cinders and very accurate.
"Lions Led by Donkeys" was a saying used by every soldier and many officers during the Boer War and WW1. It referrred specifically to those officers of the Old School Tie Brigade, who were elevated in rank with little training in tactics and fieldcraft, due to the cut of their jib within an established Military family, with schooling as..........ie Eton/Harrow and the like.
It was only until Military Academies were properly orchestrated and funded by Government like Sandhurst that things started to change, with a cohesive style of management and tactics that were moved on from simple Cavalry Charges. When it came to the simple infanteer it was a case of "Don't run men.............walk" into hails of machine gun fire, accounting for many of our losses.
"It just isn't done running at an enemy old chap, walk" you can hear the echoes even now, with Black Adder encapsulating the whole jaunt in the TV series. If it wasn't so funny it would be serious.
Some Guards Regiments still evoke the past family traditions here in the UK and I am sure it goes on in Australia/Canada and the USA too.
Quite a wide subject this, and trying to find blame in what was a right buggers muddle from France to Gallipoli!!
Only exceptional officers like Churchill could fathom out what was occurring, and it was only when he got into the House of Commons that things did actually change for the better, but by then we were into WW2