Mystery of the Missing Wartime Long Branch Snipers

[stencollector]

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hets0006-1.jpg

Interesting picture. My son-in-law has one of those chests. Do you know why they were painted that color?

It will be sometime in or after the mid 60s. Often the pale yellow was just used to cover up the original markings...clean up the box so to speak. I have a few dozen of the Cno7 crates that have all kinds of cover-up paint. I'm heading out to he shop now, so I'll check to see if there are any indications of the timeline.

Here are some more shots from when I brought home the two chests:











These photos were from the chest painted with the pale yellow. The bulk of the markings were on the middle layer. Markings included: Top right had the number 4422-23-24, along with other numbers and letters I could not decipher. Markings on the center of the lid proved slightly more interesting. Careful deciphering makes it look like it was shipped to "officer commanding XX Canadian training B Dundurn Saskatchewan".

Below is the crate with all the markings stripped.

[Lee Enfield]

...snip...
The serial number is important. It tells us that this serial block probably went from 80L 8001 - 80L8099. From my data analysis, this actually would have been part of the 1946 Post War issuance (Serial Numbers ~80L 8084 - 80L 8099, followed along by the 91L 8xxx block.)

...snip...

lets try to not get carried away with too much speculation;

All known No32Mk4 / C.No67Mk1 scopes are dated 1944 - (serial numbers from 2-c thru 98-c)

All known 80L block sniper receivers are dated 1944

This January 15, 1945 sniper class photo shows: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38674
2- TP rifles (74L block)
1- No32 rifle
1- ASC/ASE trials rifle without bayonet lug
1- Griffin + Howe C.No67 sniper (80L block)...
Attachment 70484[

[Seaspriter]

All known 80L block sniper receivers are dated 1944

Thanks LE. Have we seen any in the 80L 8084 - 80L 8099 range? StenCollector's chest indicates the 80L series probably went to 80L 8099. As we all know, the receiver serial numbers are confusing (there are 71L5xx receivers with 1945 dates). I think (yet to be verified 100%) that the 80L 808Xs serial block was on hold for lack of scopes, and pushed into the 1946 release. I've been working "backwards" from 1946, applying Marshall's production report data onto the serial numbers and "forwards" from 1944 using the same production reports to triangulate the dates for various serial block numbers.

If you PM me with your email address, I will share the spread sheet with you and let you noodle over the data and let you challenge how I'm starting to arrive at a few conclusions. You have the best data records on the 71L to 80L serial blocks, so two heads are better than one on this mystery.

Robert

[Lee Enfield]

Thanks LE. Have we seen any in the 80L 8084 - 80L 8099 range? StenCollector's chest indicates the 80L series probably went to 80L 8099. As we all know, the receiver serial numbers are confusing (there are 71L5xx receivers with 1945 dates). I think (yet to be verified 100%) that this serial block was on hold for lack of scopes, and pushed into the 1946 release. I've been working "backwards" from 1946, applying Marshall's production report data onto the serial numbers and "forwards" from 1944 using the same production reports to triangulate the dates for various serial block numbers.

If you PM me with your email address, I will share the spread sheet with you and let you noodle over the data and let you challenge how I'm starting to arrive at a few conclusions. You have the best data records on the 71L to 80L serial blocks, so two heads are better than one on this mystery.

Robert

My notes say that 80L 070 sold at auction in Oct 2006 - but the board that the reference material leads to crashed in mid 2007 and re-started with new software...so it's gone.

[Peter Laidler]

Lee Enfield, thread 42, line 1, is right. But what I'm going to say next is first hand heresay. While I was researching the No4T book I spent 1 1/2 days at H&H and Sid Harvey. It was Sid Harvey who related to me what the overseer that went to Canada told him. In short, it was to pass on the details about how to turn the Canadian No4T conversion process into a full slick production line. So far, so good.

On his return and some time after the war when he was a bit more relaxed about telling them where he was (they'd been told that he was assisting BSA in some way or another.....) he told LB that they should divert a large batch of identical rifles from production as a large batch would all be identical - as you'd expect. In car production, this is called 'same-day quality or standard' After all, this is why H&H specified all BSA production and could run a streamlined production line process. According to Sid, these LB rifles went onto the shop floor un-numbered BUT with a serial number block allocated. Let's say, *80L0x to 00xx. As and when the block was used, production simply slipped into the next allocated block of numbers along with another run of identical 'same-day' rifle production. On completion, the finished rifles were consecutively numbered to suit.

That's why you get almost sequential blocks of serial numbers. And this is the reason why the year on the body side might not necessarily coincide with the serial number prefixer. From the queries and points made in this thread, this all seems to fall into place. It's also telling from this and what's been said by Sid and on this thread, that after this very hushed working visit production numbers did increase.

Alas, Sid did mention that while production/conversion of the rifles at LB increased in leaps and bounds, telescope production could never keep up. And he wouldn't have been able to tell me that unless he'd been told first hand, in the 50's! The overseer died in the early 60's if my scribbled notes are anything to go by and Sid passed away several years ago. With him passed on the last wartime employee on the No4T line
* just using 80L as an example of methodology

[Sentryduty]

First of all, Peter great insight there, that sort of knowledge is why I frequent this forum in particular.

Secondly, do we have a "Master" working list of all accounted LB Snipers, and if so, how does the accounting change if we simply try to group by serial and not by year alone?

Thirdly, based on Peter's last point, I think the real key to tracking/grouping LB snipers is by the telescopes, a sniper rifle isn't complete without one, so accounting of the scopes is probably very important, the original scope production year is probably the exact year that rifle rolled out the door.

An analogy could be a car waiting for tires can't leave the factory, so the production dates on the tires would dictate when that car left the line into service.

[Seaspriter]

while production/conversion of the rifles at LB increased in leaps and bounds, telescope production could never keep up.

Thanks Peter -- this info conforms with all the evidence. What the Production Reports indicate are also illuminating:
Date-------Scopes-------Notes
-------------Produced
Yr 1944----644---------[apparently almost all produced July-Dec 1944]
Q1 1945---254
Q2 1945----24----------(Marshall: production fell off because of lack of scopes)
Q3 1945--- 161---------(Marshall: production satisfactory compatible with receipt of scopes)
Q4 1945----58
Yr 1946----376

Did you gather any information about how many Snipers were sent to the UK without scopes and when these were sent?

[Lee Enfield]

Thanks Peter -- this info conforms with all the evidence. What the Production Reports indicate are also illuminating:
Date-------Scopes-------Notes
-------------Produced
Yr 1944----644---------[apparently almost all produced July-Dec 1944]
Q1 1945---254
Q2 1945----24----------(Marshall: production fell off because of lack of scopes)
Q3 1945--- 161---------(Marshall: production satisfactory compatible with receipt of scopes)
Q4 1945----58
Yr 1946----376

Did you gather any information about how many Snipers were sent to the UK without scopes and when these were sent?

Is this a document listing scopes accepted during those periods?

[Seaspriter]

Is this a document listing scopes accepted during those periods?

No, unfortunately Marshall's report does not list scopes. The Report is referenced as:
Marshall, T.H. (1946) Small Arms Limited 1940-1946 (A partial history). Heritage Mississauga Research Files.

The full report can be found in this thread: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36140

Here is the annotated version just containing the Sniper references -- From the Production Records October 1943-March 1946 prepared by the Assistant Manager, T.H.Marshall , Small Arms Division, 1946.

1944: Total Snipers produced: 644 [Note: no reference to sniper production for 1941-43]
Q1-‘45 Snipers Produced: 254 Total: 898
Q2-’45:Snipers Produced: 24, Production fell due to not receiving the necessary telescopes, Total: 922.
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083 -- production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes.
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141.
Dec 31 1945: Small Arms Limited Uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376; All assets and liabilities of the company turned over to the Department of Reconstruction and Supply and the company made application for the surrender of its Charter.

[RPL note: Total Snipers produced between 1944-1946 = 1,517]

To my knowledge, this is the only primary source we have. All others are secondary or tertiary sources. If anyone knows of other primary source data, please let me know.

Marshall's data, as it is more than likely very accurate, actually requires us to match serial numbers against production rates. Here is what (to me) makes the most sense, given what I've seen so far (still open to modification based on incoming data):

DATE---# Produced - Serial # Range (best guess)
Yr 1944---- 3----- 63L5
Yr 1944---- 10----64L7
Yr 1944---- 50----68L 350 - 68L 400
Yr 1944---- 581---71L 000 - 71L 581
Q1 1945--- 68----71L581 - 71L 651
Q1 1945---186---74L 001 -74L 186
Q2 1945----24----74L 187 -74L 211
Q3 1945----137--74L 202 -74L 350
Q3 1945----24----80L 8001- 80L 8024
Q4 1945----58----80L 8025 - 80L 8083
Yr 1946-----16----80L 8084 - 80L8099
Yr 1946---- 360---90L8000 - 90L8360
Total '44-6-1517

Remember, this matching system matches the production report to the serial numbers, but does not try to explain what grouping may be out of order because some scopeless Snipers were snatched away and sent to the UK to be scoped. I'm just trying to do the matching based on evidence, but it is still imprecise due to anomalies.

[Lee Enfield]

No, unfortunately Marshall's report does not list scopes. The Report is referenced as:
Marshall, T.H. (1946) Small Arms Limited 1940-1946 (A partial history). Heritage Mississauga Research Files.

The full report can be found in this thread: https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36140

Here is the annotated version just containing the Sniper references -- From the Production Records October 1943-March 1946 prepared by the Assistant Manager, T.H.Marshall , Small Arms Division, 1946.

1944: Total Snipers produced: 644 [Note: no reference to sniper production for 1941-43]
Q1-‘45 Snipers Produced: 254 Total: 898
Q2-’45:Snipers Produced: 24, Production fell due to not receiving the necessary telescopes, Total: 922.
Q3-’45: Snipers Produced: 161, with total production of this item up to 1,083 -- production was progressing in a satisfactory manner, compatible with the receipt of telescopes.
Q4-’45: Snipers produced: 58, Total 1,141.
Dec 31 1945: Small Arms Limited Uncompleted contracts: Sniper’s Rifle – 376; All assets and liabilities of the company turned over to the Department of Reconstruction and Supply and the company made application for the surrender of its Charter.

[RPL note: Total Snipers produced between 1944-1946 = 1,517]

...snip....

I don't necessarily believe that you can assign those serial blocks neccesarily to those production figures -

71L 653 is the highest known 71 Block serial number, so call it 655 rifles - 762 MkI/MkIA/MkII scopes = 107 scopes
107- 71 (1941/42/43 ['pre-44"] converted rifles)
=36 scopes available for 1944 converted rifles outside the 71/74/80/90 "blocks"

OK based on believed high scope serial numbers:
376 - Mk3
100 - C.No67
350 - TP
762 - would have to be the production figure of MkI, MkIA, MkII scopes
= 1588

based on currently highest observed (scope) serial numbers:
352c - Mk3
98c - C.No67
341 - TP (rifle serial numbers 0-340 in this case)
706c - MkI, MkIA, MkII highest serial number (currently observed)
= 1497 (a shortfall of 91 numbers from 1588)

If we make the assumption that the following serial numbers are true:

376 - Mk3
100 - C.No67
350 - TP
710 - MkI, MkIA, MkII
=1536 = -52 scopes short

however we have the duplicate numbered MkI/MkIA/MkII scopes:
2647c
2651c
3840c
3845c
3854c
Implying a minimum of 17 repeated serial numbers - fixed by adding an extra digit to the serial number.

NOTE: without having the reference material in front of me: there were 104 C.No67 scopes recorded as being manufactured and 14 of them recorded as used for trials or "gifted" to other countries. This is where the "84" number came from for 80L block snipers.