Canadian Rifle Issue

[b32dominator]

Probably a nob question, but hey we're her to learn. Would Canadian soldiers been issued mainly Long Branches or would they have just been issued at random from British stock piles that Long Branches were just apart of? I ask because my buddy and I both have LB's and both of ours have been in British hands, but I've seen quite a few in the original Canadian configuration.

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[Peter Laidler]

I dare say that Canadian soldiers training in Canada would be issued with LB rifles. When they got to the UK or Germany post-war, they'd have been issued with what is known as 'pooled Ordnance stores'. They could be from anywhere. Australian soldiers in Australian were armed with Lithgow made rifles. In the Far East they were pooled so they could be from England or Oz. Same as the Land Rovers over there. The aftermath is that all sides end up with a mix of stuff afterwards. But the average crunchie doesn't give a fig so long as it works

[Gil Boyd]

What is a very interesting fact I found out this week was, while nearly all other manufacturers in the commonwealth marked their sniper rifles with the “T” designation on the sidewall, Long Branch’s first production run in 1943 was issued without the designation marked on the sidewall, leaving optimistic Canadian collectors thinking that perhaps their rifles were one of the elusive non-marked sniper rifles.

Sadly the reality was that, they weren't. Just how rare are the Long Branch sniper rifles?
With a production run of nearly 230,000 rifles in 1943, just 71 were selected to become “T” models that is a recorded fact.
Over the course of the factory’s production, just 1,588 sniper rifles were produced, and REL never made more than 400 of any particular mark.
How many knew that little pearler?

[b32dominator]

Very interesting, don't know if I've ever seen a Long Branch sniper. The post war dispersal of rifles I total understand and what I figured, I didn't think they'd sit around and create rifles buy each commonwealth and the mothership, hence our bring British exports. Plus I figured once something went back for repair the soldier would just draw the next rifle he could find not considering its manufacture. So I think I've got it figured out, soldier comes over with rifles, has rifle till something goes bad or the war ends. Rifle goes into to stock pile, because at that point who needs a rifle any more. Rifles randomly created up and dispersed back to the commonwealths. Thanks!

[Seaspriter]

With a production run of nearly 230,000 rifles in 1943, just 71 were selected to become “T” models that is a recorded fact.
Over the course of the factory’s production, just 1,588 sniper rifles were produced, and REL never made more than 400 of any particular mark.

Gil, you are probably correct. (Coincidently I was drafting an article about this very issue just this morning) We aren't sure if 71 were produced in 1943 or in the period of 1941-1943. Here's the clarification:

The Inspection Board of the UK and Canada (reference: Clive Law's Without Warning - page 37) reported "71 had already been delivered by the end of 1943" (IOW between 1941-43; however, later, on pages 37 and 40 Clive Law writes "in 1943" -- thus the confusion. We need to find the original documents to understand the true meaning.) We know Long Branch produced a small number of snipers in 1941-42, but we aren't sure how many, depending on how you read the evidence. (This stuff is only important to a few collectors -- most people won't care, but it's all part of understanding why so much of the Long Branch sniper story is clouded in a shroud of mystification).

Probably only a very small handful of Snipers were produced in 1941 (only one has shown up); probably about ~20 in 1942 (only 2 have shown up); and about ~50-71 in 1943 (depending on what the Inspection Board records actually say). However, in the 1943 production range, 21 snipers have shown up, which is far more than statistics would project. (Thanks Lee Enfield for sharing your data base -- see you in 2 weeks).

Because so many (perhaps as much as 50%) of the genuine Long Branch Snipers did not get the (T) designation stamp, they are prone to FORGERY. Beware collectors of Long Branch Snipers, especially in 1943! Apparently (according to a very reliable source on this site) two very unscrupulous scoundrels (one now dead) from Manitoba produced a dozen or more FAKES over a 25 year period. Thus the very high number of 1943 snipers showing up recently.

For collectors, the safest period for collecting is 1944-45, because Long Branch started using "serial block numbering" which makes it reasonably certain that if your sniper falls into a certain serial block, it is probably genuine.

Of the Wartime production, (1941 through first quarter 1945) only about 1000 were produced. Less than 90 have been reported (including the Fakes). IOW, the Wartime Long Branch Snipers are mighty scarce.

Even more scarce are the REL scopes that were mounted on many of the Long Branch Snipers. According the Seaforth72, who has been tracking the REL scopes, only 35 of these have been reported (and while they are much harder to fake, don't be surprised if someone tries, given their value on the market). (Thanks Colin for sharing your information.) There are more unreported REL scopes that will surface, but don't expect as many as the UK scopes.

We are currently starting to figure out where the missing snipers went, because only 9% of the Wartime production and 22% of the Postwar production have been accounted for. The short answer to the question of the Missing Snipers is that a few percent (perhaps 10%) are still in collectors closets, but sadly most were either destroyed in combat, missing in action, destroyed after the war, or scrapped for parts (parted out).

Regarding production, when the war started, the initial order from the Canadian army was for 50,000 standard No.4 rifles from the Master General of Ordnance (MGO), quickly followed by an additional order of 100,000 from the British Ministry of Supply, while the plant was under construction. (ref: Clive Law).

In the early-mid war years (1940-2), Canadian troops in the UK, Hong Kong (1941), and Africa were carrying British WWI No.1 MkIII rifles. By the time the Canadians reached Italy (1943), they were issued the No.4 rifle (thanks Seaforth72). Photographs taken during this period show the Canadian Sniper Forces at that time were using the No.3 Mk1* (T) rifle (which was the Winchester P-14 from WWI, fitted with an Aldis scope.) So, early in the war, many Canadian troops left Canada without Long Branch rifles. (According to Clive Law, p 42 " All No.4 (T) rifles were supplied to the Canadian Army by the British War Office.")

Ultimately Long Branch produced nearly a million rifles. A large portion went either with Canadian troops or to the ordnance pool as Captain Laidler indicated. Many ended in the hands of Commonwealth Countries (like India, South Africa and ANZAC) as well as NATO countries after the war and other Allies (like Greece & Turkey), or into postwar English warehouses and then scattered through surplus sales (many to the US via suplus dealers) or destroyed as scrap iron or through overboard at sea.

For example, Seaforth72 reports: "many went to NATO countries as aid in the 1950s. There is a report that the Dutch eventually scrapped their rifles but about 50 out of 350 of the Lyman scopes and brackets ended up being bought by a collector. I have found the rifle for my Lyman scope in Australia as an ex-sniper with the mounting holes plugged."

We all wish there was a secret stash of Long Branches sitting in a warehouse somewhere (like the end of the Indiana Jones movie), but that's hardly likely.

[Seaforth72]

I do not pretend to know where most surviving REL C No.32 and C No.67 scopes are as I am much newer at this research than "Lee Enfield", Warren Wheatfield or Clive Law for example. I know of 35 survivors but there are quite a few more that I do not yet know about. Having said that, yes they are rare

Most Canadian made sniper rifles ended up in the British Army system. Over the decades of hard service, many parts were changed. As Peter Laidler has mentioned, an armourer would not care if a part was made by Long Branch, Stevens-Savage, BSA Shirley etc. as long as it was correct and serviceable. Scope brackets of course had to be specially fitted to the rifle. Thus many Long Branch sniper rifle survivors turn up with British or US furniture (wood), British brackets, British scopes etc.

One of my three Long Branch snipers rifles, a 1944 68L32xx, is ex-Indian service. It came from the Ron Bowers collection a couple of miles from my home. Another 1944 71L0xxx Long Branch sniper rifle that I have has an in-service matching British bracket and scope. My third Long Branch sniper rifle, a 1945 71L0xxx came scopeless from the Show of Shows (SOS) in Kentucky via my friend Jim Hawes and now wears my C No.32 MK.3 scope in its British made bracket (not matched to this rifle). These three Long Branch sniper rifles are stablemates with my complete 1944 Telescope Observer's Sniping C MK.I with its No.47 folding stand and special 1945 carrying case.

I have a rare U.S. M1C sniper M81 scope, M1C slide and K Line cheek rest to trade for an REL sniper rifle scope (any Mark but preferably a C No.32 MK.II and ideally C No.32 MK.II SN 690-C.) For the USMC types who may be sitting on an REL rifle scope, I have an Unertl 8X scope (correct serial number range, no USMC marking, poor condition) with USMC mounts and very rare USMC Micarta carrying case to trade. I am happy to see American sniper stuff head to the USA and Canadian made sniper stuff head home to Canada. "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's."
:-)

[mrclark303]

There is a report that the Dutch eventually scrapped their rifles

I remember going back a few years now gaggle of people stood around a stand at an arms fair, on the table were "deactivated" Garands and No4's that had been chopped in Holland ... when I say chopped, I mean chopped, cut up into about 10 pieces! All ex war reserve stock apparently.

I seem to recall others (not Dutch from memory ) mainly pistols and revolvers, looked like they had been crushed over a giant griddle, being sold as paper weights !

[Peter Laidler]

The pertinent question that should be being asked about LB No4T production is this. If production of LB sniper rifles was always dictated by the slow rate of No32 LENS production why on earth was REL No42 production so prolific? All these were for use in Churchill Mk7 and 8 gun tanks (and later for the Centurion Mk1 and 2?) made in the UK. Later production of the REL No32 benefited from a relaxation in the acceptance standard whereby to accept easier to produce duplo (double) convex ocular and erector lenses as opposed to the standard plano-convex. And this relaxation was carried over onto REL No42 production. (I haven't seen an REL No53 telescope)

It seems to me that a good 75% of the No42's stripped for spares in the last 5 years have been REL's. And unless you use the lenses as a matched set, life in the dark-room against the optical screen can become VERY difficult

If REL were really struggling with lens production, why on earth didn't someone call a stop (or even a START.....) to production of the No42 for UK tank production!

[Gil Boyd]

Beggars belief I agree

[Peter Laidler]

Other things about REL production seems mysterious to me too! I have worked on several REL's.
17 Mk1's, and 18 1A's ranging in mixed numbers from 10C to 469C
18 Mk2's ranging from 475C to 690C
38 Mk3's ranging from 1C to 353C.

That's 91 and there's probably more too that I haven't listed. As for REL No42's, someone local to me has in excess of 100+ with serial ranging from 12C to 1649C

None of it makes sense mathematically either!