"Cavalry" cup and canteen question

[RT Ellis]

Both of the imaged canteen cover 2-quart collapsible canteen in the images provided are government procured items.

All of the canteen cover 2-quart collapsible canteen except tan was assigned the same NSN: 8465-00-927-7485. (NSN for the strap is 8465-00-269-0682).

Both the 5-color desert (shown in image) and the Woodland camouflage canteen covers were manufactured on contract DLA 100-86-C-4326 awarded to Medical Supplies Mfg. (Nashua, NH) 16June86. with an indeterminate completion date, for $720,000.00. It is unknown how these canteen covers were separated for issue in the supply system, however both were manufactured part of the trial Integrated Individual Fighting System LBE, so presumably all were controlled by the test board.

The tan cover was manufactured by Unicor (Federal Prison Industries, Ray Brook, NY), procured by the Supply Procurement Office (SPO) of DLA, contract SPO 100-04-D-4202 awarded 8Mar2004, completion date 2May2005, $695,898.00.

[dimmuborgir95]

Thanks, Richard! In this text, we are talking about a this cover, Safariland production ?

Attachment 73880
Attachment 73881
Attachment 73882

"WOODLAND

NSN 8415-01-478-0270, 8415014780270
COVER,CANT,2QT,WDL

National Stock Number 8415-01-478-0270

National Stock Number (NSN) 8415-01-478-0270, or NIIN 014780270, (cover,cant,2qt,wdl) was assigned August 28, 2000 in the Federal Logistics Information System (FLIS). This NSN does not replace any other NSNs.

There is only one manufacturer part number associated with this NSN. None of the associated part number(s) are considered obsolete. The manufacturer part numbers were originally supplied by one supplier. Today, one supplier is listed as an Active supplier for this NSN. Of the active suppliers, only one supplier is deemed design controlled or valid supply parts.

This part number has not been procured by the US Government in over 5 years.

This NSN is assigned to Item Name Code (INC) 77777. There is no information in the HMIRS; however, the NSN is in an FSC in Table II of Federal Standard 313 and an MSDS may be required by the user. The requirement for an MSDS is dependent on a hazard determination of the supplier or the intended end use of the product. NSN 8415014780270 does not contain precious metals.

This information was last updated on Jun 01, 2016".

National Stock Number NSN 8415-01-478-0270, 8415014780270

[RT Ellis]

The canteen carrier 2-quart collapsible canteen in your post #32 is not the same canteen cover 2-quart collapsible canteen I'm referring to in your post #26. Canteen cover 2-quart collapsible canteen (Battle Dress Uniform Woodland pattern, and 5-color desert camouflage) and canteen cover LC-2 (BDU Woodland pattern camouflage) were manufactured in the 1980s as components of the Integrated Infantry Fighting System, which had as the primary objective to reduce the radar signature of the individual on the battlefield. With passive thermal imaging and infrared imaging on the battlefield radar signature was a minor concern to detection.

The canteen carrier 2-quart collapsible canteen in post #32 is a component of the Modular Lightweight Load-Carrying Equipment (MOLLE), and has been manufactured in Woodland, ACU, Coyote, Multi-cam and probably other camouflage patterns, all of which were assigned separate NSNs. The materials used in the manufacture is described as textured nylon duck, AKA Gore-Tex.

Specialty Defense Systems, Dunmore, Pa. aka The Specialty Group, Inc. (acquired in 2007 by BAE Systems) was a prime developer of MOLLE.

[dimmuborgir95]

Yes, thanks, indeed, I was inattentive, and I did not pay attention to the method of fixing.

and canteen cover LC-2 (BDU Woodland pattern camouflage) were manufactured in the 1980s as components of the Integrated Infantry Fighting System,

You mean this cover?

Attachment 74058
Attachment 74059

[RT Ellis]

The example in your images is a canteen cover LC-2 (IIFS) that was apparently sub-contracted to Turner Thurston as the contractor was S&S Garment Mfg. Co. contract DLA100-82-C-4355 awarded Jun82 completed Mar83 for $68,000. The markings on this canteen cover extraordinarily readable because the black portions of the camouflage often obscure the markings.

One of the co-authors of the book "American Web Equipment 1967-1991" has stated on another militaria forum that canteen cover LC-2 was never procured by DLA in any color other than olive green and tan, so according to him this cover wasn't manufactured for the government. If he is correct then your cover and the covers manufactured by S&S Mfg Co. (contract DLA100-88-C-4250), and Nordac Mfg. Corp. (contract DLA100-79-C-3031) are replicas with verifiable contract information, but it appears he needs to do more research.

FYI there are replica canteen covers sold commercially that may be taken as genuine government contract equipment because of the markings:
Stansport marked EASTERN CANVAS PRODUCTS, INC. \ DSA 100-74-C-1830.
Powell Military Supply marked POWELL MILITARY SUPPLY INC. \ DSA 100 PM-C6481 (phony contract number derived from the company initials and their phone number).
Truspec Mills marked TRUSPEC MILLS CO. \ DLA 100-92-C-1334.

[dimmuborgir95]

One of the co-authors of the book "American Web Equipment 1967-1991" has stated on another militaria forum that canteen cover LC-2 was never procured by DLA in any color other than olive green and tan,

Yes, I have read this theme in another forum, and therefore I wanted to know your opinion. In various forums, there are many opinions about the camouflage covers, so it's quite confusing for a "beginner".
Here is this text, if anyone interested to read:

" Over the years, on this forum and others, a debate has raged as to whether or not the nylon water canteen cover has been “officially” contracted to be manufactured in something other than OG-106 nylon duck. Simply put: whether it is ERDL, woodland, 3-color desert, 6-color desert, black, "desert tan”, Flecktarn, ACU, MARPAT, etc., there has been no other color (besides OG-106) contracted for manufacture for use by the United States Government. It is a pretty sure bet that whatever color it is, it was manufactured for the commercial market.

In Gordon Rottman's 1989 book U.S. Army Combat Equipments 1910-88, the author (in his section detailing the Integrated Individual Fighting System (IIFS) development) states "Woodlands-pattern first aid pouch and canteen covers of the same design as the ALICE versions, are attached to the belt..." Some individuals have held this statement as gospel. But what I quoted is all that appears in the book concerning the matter…that is all there is! Rottman offers no further information in the book, nor a source for the information that he wrote (so that the information could be fact-checked). During my research, I (among numerous others) have found numerous errors with this book (and not just this book by Rottman, there are other works of his that have been called into question). Further, when researching the creation and development of the IIFS (for my book), I found absolutely no evidence from Natick Laboratories that a woodland camouflage pattern first aid pouch or water canteen cover were ever trialed with the system. I went as far as asking Greg Lowe (since his company was provided samples of all the trial IIFS material up until 1984 for review), when I interviewed him for the book, if he ever saw the items Rottman spoke of. Lowe’s response was that only the IIFS trial TLBV and the FPLIF had been produced in woodland camouflage pattern".

FYI there are replica canteen covers sold commercially that may be taken as genuine government contract equipment because of the markings:
Stansport marked EASTERN CANVAS PRODUCTS, INC. \ DSA 100-74-C-1830.
Powell Military Supply marked POWELL MILITARY SUPPLY INC. \ DSA 100 PM-C6481 (phony contract number derived from the company initials and their phone number).
Truspec Mills marked TRUSPEC MILLS CO. \ DLA 100-92-C-1334.

Thanks Richard, it is necessary and useful information!
If possible, could you tell us about the differences canteen pouches MOLLE and MOLLE-II? At the internet forums basically only talks and fotos about MOLLE-II, and I do not understand how they differ.

MOLLE-II

MOLLE II Equipment

"Field user feedback on the original MOLLE led to modified designs to some of the MOLLE components. With these changes, MOLLE became MOLLE II. Specific changes included:
********
********
MOLLE II Pouch, Canteen Carrier/Utility was introduced (NSN 8465-01-484-0450)"

Attachment 74086
Attachment 74088
Attachment 74087

How does "MOLLE" cover/pouch? I found the photo on the web under the name "SPEAR ELCS by Safariland".

Attachment 74083
Attachment 74082

One quart canteen cover on this photo is "standard" MOLLE, or is it only a exclusive model Safariland?

Attachment 74085
Attachment 74084

[dimmuborgir95]

Yes, I understand, that I ask a lot of questions. The fact is that in most forums I was not able to find a really precise answer to some questions ( and I was very interested in the history of all american canteens and covers for them, from the Civil War to the present day). In many things I was able to deal exclusively with the help of Richard T. Ellis and his themes, for which he thanks a lot!

Now I'm trying to understand the models of covers for USMC canteens.

1) Maybe someone knows, what the official name of the "first models" USMC covers for canteen M1910?
In American forums is usually called "Pattern 1912", is really correct, or is it more of a "professional collectors/dealers slang"? After all, if I understand correctly, the DQP began issuing these covers only since 1914?

2) Name the following model cover - M1941, It is correct? They really started to produce in 1941?

3) "Funnel hole" in covers bottom, ( and "cross-flap" model cover) It appeared in 1943?


I will be very grateful, if someone takes the time to answer me.

Best regards, Michael

[RT Ellis]

The Marine Corps didn't usually have their own nomenclature for field mess equipment that included a specific model, but generally carried a generic nomenclature and Marines were issued any pattern equipment that fit that nomenclature. When ordering equipment from the Army the Marine Corps did usually use the Army nomenclature and model identification, and the Army nomenclature was occasionally used in correspondence. I invite your attention to the attachment letter in which there is a mix of Army and Marine Corps nomenclatures used apparently for clarity.

Attachment 74647

The Marines first acquired canteen M1910, canteen cover (dismounted) M1910, and canteen cup M1910 from the Army Ordnance Department in 1912, and was included in the Marine Uniform Regulations of 1912. The equipment listed and illustrated in the 1912 Regulations are often referred to by collectors as model or pattern 1912, but were not identified as such in the regulations or equipment lists. The Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot (DQP) in 1913 started manufacturing an aluminum canteen, aluminum canteen cup, and and in 1914 canteen cover similar to the patterns then in production at Rock Island Arsenal. DQP discontinued manufacture of canteens and canteen cups circa 1930, but continued to manufacture canteen covers. The DQP canteen cover was initially identical to canteen cover M1910 except the snap fasteners featured the uniform button (eagle and anchor) design. DQP moved the belt hook to near the top of the back of the canteen cover circa 1915. In 1916 or '17 the material was changed to olive drab and in 1917 the Carr socket and stud fastener (LTD) replaced the the "eagle cap" fastener. The next most significant change was the back body was reinforced with stitching circa 1918.

In 1940 the USMC started experimenting with packs to replace the pack (known to collectors as model or pattern 1912) then in use similar to haversack M1910, and in 1941 ordered a pack board to be assembled at Quantico. The board tried various designs. but finally developed a two pack system that was intended to provide a transport pack and a combat pack which was sent for field trial in September 1941, and generally referred to by collectors as model or pattern 1941, as part of the "pack system M1941" adopted in December 1941. As part of this pack assembly the board also designed a canteen cover that the wool insulation was deleted. The canteen cover is often referred to by collectors as pattern or model 1941, but this was not official nomenclature. The early canteen covers (p1941) were assembled with socket and stud (LTD) Type 1 fasteners, and changed to Type 2 fasteners in 1942-44.

Attachment 74648

The Marine Corps Equipment Board in 1943 recommended for adoption an "improved" canteen cover that featured extended flaps and the belt hook was moved back to the center of the body. There was no explanation for the changes although it was mentioned in the recommendation for the funnel hole the canteen cover was developed as the result of experience in the Guadalcanal Campaign. Shortly after adoption of the "improved" canteen cover it was recommended that the canteen cover be fitted with a funnel hole in the bottom to expedite filling the canteen from the 5-gallon Expeditionary Water Can. The pattern 1941 and improved canteen covers, both of which were manufactured contemporaneously through 1944, were provided with funnel openings probably on the basis of 50% of production at DQP.

Attachment 74649
Attachment 74650

[dimmuborgir95]

Richard, thank you very much for the detailed explanation and for the very interesting documents. Now, thanks to you, many nuances become apparent to me!

I have question - belt hook on the all covers of USMC really made entirely of iron (not brass)?

And, if possible, please tell me about the "post-war" covers USMC, and at what time they stopped to produce and use? Perhaps, with the advent of plastic canteen?
I saw on one EBAY, and the forums green covers, marked as "Collette MFG 1952" , with USMC marking.

Attachment 74686
Attachment 74685


Best regards, Michael

[RT Ellis]

With the exception of the very early canteen covers manufactured at DQP a distinctively different double belt hook was manufactured and assembled to field equipment. The hook was usually made of steel wire that was "browned" black, and it appears during WWII Parkerized, although it was possible to produce browning with a lusterless finish and that may be the process used. Brass wire double belt hooks are occasionally observed, and what appears to be nickle-plated steel hooks have been examined that it appears were sometimes assembled during salvage repair.

I should have mentioned previously that the "improved" canteen cover continued to be manufactured by DQP in 1945. The various patterns of canteen covers were manufactured in sufficient quantities that some were still in use in the early 1960s.

During WWII the supply systems of the Army and Marine Corps was consolidated, apparently because the Navy that transported all classes of supply wanted to reduce the number of items by type and wasn't interested in sorting out Army and Marine Corps equipment that was to them the same, i.e. a canteen cover in any pattern was a canteen cover. Besides the Army and Marine Corps equipment sent from supply functions in the U.S., Australian companies were contracted to manufacture uniforms and equipment, and canteen covers was among the equipment items manufactured locally. How this impacted on the issue of equipment in theater to soldiers and marines isn't clear but it apparently occasionally occurred that troops received what was available for issue.

The canteen covers manufactured on a Marine Corps contract by Collette Mfg. Co., Amsterdam, N.Y. (manufactured canteen cover (dismounted) M1910 in 1942, 1944-45, 1951-52, 1956-57, canteen cover (pattern 1945 w/shoulder strap) 1945, and canteen cover M1956.) and marked "U.S.M.C." were manufactured in every detail to Army QMC Specification MIL-C-1725 22Nov49, and other than the marking the covers were not unique to the Marine Corps.

The consolidation of the supply systems that started during WWII was formalized circa 1956, and continued with the establishment of the Department of Defense, Defense Agency (DA) 1953-61, Defense Supply Agency (DSA) 1962-77, and Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) 1978-93, partly because of the commitment to NATO. Since the demise of the Soviet "threat" for some inexplicable reason the armed forces have all been allowed to design uniforms and equipment unique to their "requirements" which may or may not be required for anything other than identity. Keeping abreast to the developments is a challenging task as in the case of load bearing equipment several industrial concerns have developed equipment intended to generate sales, and a rather unusual system in which equipment can be purchased by units about to deploy to a combat assignment from any manufacturer that has been accepted by the General Services Administration (GSA). This has apparently been a useful method for units to acquire equipment that meets operational requirements, and for a militaria collector provides an interesting (bewildering might be a better word) choice of material culture equipment to collect.