UK No4T withdrawal date?

[Bindi2]

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------

I'm surprised that so many brand new rifles were released to commercial sale if the war stock rifles were so "well used".

Having said that, we (the canadian gov't and military anyway) have made disposing of stored arms a habit ( Inglis Hi Powers + No4 rifles as just 2 examples) resulting in a need to canabalize new guns in stores, and purchase beaten debris from the open market to suplement systems still in use...

My 90L long branch was inspected by V.Ball in 1961 or 1962.

I believe the only firing was at conversion and after MOD released it.

That raises the question of British commercial proofing...are they actually ALL proof fired??

I'm really not sure how my "mummy wrapped" 1955 Fax mk2 was proof fired?? Without being unwrapped (except at the muzzle and serial number on receiver side).

Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stamp

[Peter Laidler]

I have heard of a UK mummy wrapped rifle slit open JUST enough to lift and open the bolt and muzzle to be proof fired. Then sealed up again. Alas, not cleaned properly - or at all.. Several years later, new owner, opened wrapping with a badly corroded barrel. So make sure you clean it yourself and THEN re-wrap.

[Lee Enfield]

Proof fired before wrapping for storage. Broken wrap to check serial and apply import stamp.

---------- Post added at 06:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:09 PM ----------



Proofed fired before wrapping for storage. Wrap broken to check serial an d to apply import stamp

Sorry I didn't make it clear enough, "civilian commercial" proof firing, it could not have been commercial proof fired as the bolt is wrapped in, and the original packaging and Fazakerly tags are intact.

I have heard of a UK mummy wrapped rifle slit open JUST enough to lift and open the bolt and muzzle to be proof fired. Then sealed up again. Alas, not cleaned properly - or at all.. Several years later, new owner, opened wrapping with a badly corroded barrel. So make sure you clean it yourself and THEN re-wrap.

The bolt is sealed by the original long term storage wrapping.

[mrclark303]

Sorry civilian commercial proof firing, it could not have been as the bolt is wrapped in, and the original packaging and Fazakerly tags are intact.

It's an interesting thing Civilian proof law, I think I am right in say that it is a legal requirement for all firearms sold in the UK to be within proof (British or CIP), I guess if a rifle is surplussed and sold for export however, its not required.

Its amazing though (and I am sure the RFD's and collectors on here will agree) the amount of Milsurp firearms that are sold out of proof in the UK, even worse, the RFD's who haven't got the first clue about proof and the law and think military proof/ownership markings are good enough!

The lack of knowledge on occasion is simply breathtaking!

[Peter Laidler]

You surprise me with that statement! It's not as though UK Military firearms aren't proofed - they ARE, so it's hardly breathtaking! So where is the real problem. It's just a technicality you're talking about. The law requires that they are proofed at a UK proof house and the UK military proof houses for small arms don't exist any more.

Maybe you can tell me when the last prosecution for a non civilian proofed but full military proofed weapon went to court? Nope......., nor can I...... nor can the law books. Because it wouldn't even get to court! My specialist subject here....... Ask me about the clown who told us to reproof all of our Vickers guns

[PrinzEugen]

Yeah there are lots of experts around who know the law chapter and verse and love to quote it. Disappointingly for them this intricate level of expertise doesn't really extend to the authorities who have more important things to think of - like simply trying to do the basics of gun control with hardly any resources.

[mrclark303]

You surprise me with that statement! It's not as though UK Military firearms aren't proofed - they ARE, so it's hardly breathtaking! So where is the real problem. It's just a technicality you're talking about. The law requires that they are proofed at a UK proof house and the UK military proof houses for small arms don't exist any more.

Maybe you can tell me when the last prosecution for a non civilian proofed but full military proofed weapon went to court? Nope......., nor can I...... nor can the law books. Because it wouldn't even get to court! My specialist subject here....... Ask me about the clown who told us to reproof all of our Vickers guns

What I mean by breathtaking Peter is this is the law, it's very straight forward on this subject, if you sell a firearm in the UK it has to be in current civilian proof, British or CIP, that's it, absolutely straightforward, the thing that amazes me are the RFD's that don't know that!

Is it a stupid old fashioned law, yes, it is, with at best marginal relevance in this day and age, but it's still a law.

Hypothetical situation ... you are at the range with your newly acquired No4 (that's not been legally proofed), you pull the trigger and it lets go, seriously injuring you and the people around you, now, do you think your shooting insurance would pay out ?

My guess would be not a snowballs chance in hell ...

That's my take on it anyway.

[Peter Laidler]

But it's ALREADY been proofed......... And legally proofed too, to the legal requirement of the UK Military. I mean, how many times do you need to proof something. It is simply over stressing it. Can you imagine a mountaineer stressing his ropes twice? Is the UK Military proof seriously less that of, say, the Bulgarian proof house that's now accepted by default - but isn't even CIP approved? Come on! And when was the last time you saw an ex Army rifle, your No4 for example, break? Nope....., me neither.

[mrclark303]

Evening Peter,
I agree with you, the whole proofhouse thing is no more than a pointless firearm overdressing money generating cartel, unfortunately military proof just isn't regarded as legally "within proof" from the point if view of RFD or private sales.

Insurance wise, all they need is a reason not to pay out, any potential litigiousness situation will do involving the rifle in question.

Cheers John.

[Flying10uk]

If the U.K. military proof houses for small arms don't exist anymore where does the U.K. military get it's small arms proofed then. Presumably the SA80s are now proofed in Germany and are the remainder of the country's small arms proofed there as well?