No. 4, Mark II swivel question

[Jupiter]

My rifle is an unfired Irish contract rifle. It was manufactured with three swivels, which includes the one on the front band. My question has nothing whatsoever to do with how many swivels the rifle is supposed to have. It has to do with the proper orientation of the center swivel. As I've said, all of the three swivels on my rifle are manufactured in such a way that there is a cant, a bend, a dogleg, whatever you want to call so that the stalk of the swivel is NOT in the same plane as the swivel itself. So, that assuming the rifle is held horizontally, and the stalk of the swivel is pointing directly at the ground, the swivel itself (the portion that accepts the sling) is NOT pointed at the ground, but is canted about 20 to 30 degrees fore or aft, depending on which way you install the swivel. I've out of further explanations. The question is when the swivel (not the butt swivel, and not the one by the front sight, but the center swivel) is fully pushed to its maximum travel upward (toward the sky) it will bottom out on the wood in ONE of its positions--the question is, should it be installed to that it bottoms out against the wood nearest the shooter, or nearest the muzzle. Either is possible depending on if you flip the swivel around. To be clear, the swivel itself is welded in such a way that it makes a "dogleg".

---------- Post added at 07:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:36 PM ----------

For further and hopefully final clarification, I am talking about the swivel about a foot from the muzzle. I'm calling that the center because my rifle has one at the butt, one about a foot from the muzzle, and one almost at the muzzle. I am not talking about a swivel added somehow just forward of the magazine.

---------- Post added at 07:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:39 PM ----------

The large swivel on the mag housing wasn't in the discussion. An offset swivel as originally referred to was a piling swivel. THOSE they didn't have.

Correct, Jim, I am not talking about a swivel on the mag housing, nor am I talking about an offset/piling swivel where the screw tab is off center on the swivel. I am talking about a canted screw tab, stalk, or whatever one wants to call the piece of the swivel that accepts the screw.

---------- Post added at 07:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

Krinko, you could answer my question by doing the following: In your photo, your sling is attached in the front to what I am calling the "center swivel" because mine has one at the muzzle as well. To answer my question, please manipulate your front swivel, and tell me in which position the swivel will lie flat on the wood--it will do so in only one direction, either toward the butt, or toward the muzzle. Just want you to fold the swivel, and tell me in which direction it lays flat. Thanks. This is easier to do than write, I am finding. If your will lie flat in both directions, you have a different model swivel, an uncanted one.

[browningautorifle]

It lies flat towards the rear, so it stops from going forward when the rifle is slung...

[Jupiter]

It lies flat towards the rear, so it stops from going forward when the rifle is slung...

Excellent! Thank you very much for the information, I appreciate it.

[Parashooter]

Naming of Parts

This is the lower sling swivel. And this
Is the upper sling swivel, whose use you will see,
When you are given your slings. And this is the piling swivel,
Which in your case you have not got. . .

Which in our case we have not got?

The feature of a piling swivel was discontinued from the standard-issue British rifle . . . during the latter years of World War I. The rationale for the swivel's retirement were the cost, time and labor saved by its elimination, but also the accelerating tactics of modern warfare, whereby soldiers in the trenches could no longer afford the luxury of storing their weapons in a neat, interlocked stack or "pile," nor the time to untangle them. Inclusion resumed following the first World War, before finally being dropped altogether in the late 1930's.

See why those of us accustomed to standard nomenclature are confused by a "center swivel"?

[browningautorifle]

This does bring up another question though, are the Irish contract rifles really provided with a piling swivel? They actually came from the factory with a swivel mounted up front? That would actually be the first #4 rifle that I've ever seen with a piling swivel. There were lots of those rifles sold around here too...

[Peter Laidler]

Nope. They were bog standard UK Military spec No4 Mk2 rifles, as per the MoS build spec, EMER and IPList. 2x swivels. Butt and lower band.

[browningautorifle]

My rifle is an unfired Irish contract rifle. It was manufactured with three swivels, which includes the one on the front band.

Nope.

OK, that's what I thought.

[Badger]

There's an excellent discussion about sling swivels by Peter Laidler and others under most Knowledge Library entries for various No.4(T)'s ...

As an example, check the "Collectors Comments and Feedback" for:

1944 Enfield No.4 Mk1(T) Sniper Rifle

Extract …..

The Military issue sling swivel, B1/CR-540, WILL FOUL the steel loop at the front of the trigger guard. Read that again. It WILL FOUL the loop at 180 degrees of rotation either way. The reason is to prevent the sling loop and sling rotating and getting itself into a twist.

The post war commercial item that fakers use is slightly longer and will just clear the small wire loop. This allows it and therefore the sling to rotate through 360 degrees. The sling can and will twist.

Also, here's another older thread in the forum on the same subject which has a lot of interesting information and feedback:

Center Sling Swivel

Regards,
Doug

[Jupiter]

My buddy and I bought two of these on the same day. Both wrapped, tagged, encased in full on cosmoline/grease, etc. My serial shows Irish contract, one of the 50K that went to Ireland. His is Burma. Both came with three swivels. I just check with him yesterday and had him send me a photo of his to verify. I have done nothing whatsoever to the rifle in terms of adding parts since the day I got it, and I am the only owner. All three swivels on the rifle are identical. So, what can I tell you.

Slightly off topic, the rifle has a matching serial number magazine, number stamped in white on the bottom of the mag. I would like to purchase an additional mag, but find them difficult to acquire. Will a No. 4 Mark I mag also fit the No. 4 mark II? Thank you in advance for any guidance.

[Peter Laidler]

All I can say is that the UK Military build specification for the rifle goes on for a couple of pages and states that two sling swivels will be fitted on the..... for the purposes of........ and these swivels will........... etc etc etc. I realise that your rifles were supposedly part of '....the Irish' contract (and a Burma one too...) but they were MADE by the UK Government FOR the UK Government. Maybe you could ask your pal why none of the others don't have this extra swivel. Where was the extra swivel incidentally? On the upper band (near the foresight) or attached to the front trigger guard screw. I have just felt under the mummified wrapping of my STILL new in wrap No4 and as far as I can feel, guess what....... 2 sling swivels exactly where they were on the thousands and thousands I saw in my limited Army service - as an Armourer

Yes, all No4 magazines are the same. It could be that Irish and Burmese ones differ slightly but 'the same' does not mean that they are interchangeable. Magazines are hand fitted to ensure the correct fit and function. That's why they are numbered to the gun.

Sorry to be more brutal than persuasive in my argument, but that's how they were manufactured.