Changing .303 projectiles

[Roy W]

PPU make identical 174gr bullets in .308 and .311

I expect you have been sent the wrong ones if you wanted them for .303.

I bought batches of both recently and the .303 ones measured consistently at .311 and the .308's were all .308.

[Brian Dick]

Boat tail projectiles work great in newish barrels. Most service grade Lee rifles have seen their fair share of Mk.7 cordite ammo and it's the wear pattern in the throat/leade from the hot burning cordite that causes instability problems with boat tail projectiles.

[25-5]

I am not familiar with any of the powders listed in the posts. The .311 174gr SMK and Varget have got me 2 MOA at 200 yds. Just loaded some with a couple different weights of H4895 and the same with .311 180gr Sierra FB spitzer. My No.4 Mk2 barrel has some frosting the last 3 inches that I've tried to correct. The rifling looks good and I just don't know what effect the frosting has on the accuracy.

[CINDERS]

Powders Australian made ADI powder AR 2208 U S A equivalent VARGET, then the AR 2209 U S A equivalent Hogdon H414, Hog 4350, IMR 4350 as always with reloads start at least 5-10% under stated load and work up looking for pressure signs etc. ***No liability accepted for loads stated in my posts as what works in my rifle may not work in yours***

[JohnB40]

Thank you to all for the replies and advise.
Here is an update on my original post... As with every hobby I get into,it quickly expands in size and expense. I bought a RCBS single stage press,Lee Collet Die Set,scales and case prep kit. I pulled the projectiles from 100 of the PPU rounds and found I was measuring at the wrong point,they were indeed .311". I ordered the #3130 .312"RN from Midway and purchased H4895 and CCI #200 primers locally. I dumped the powder from the cases and initally refilled 10 with 31grs of H4895 and seated the 3130 rounds. The load was too light and the primers partically backed out. I worked up the load to 35.5 gr and found I had an accurate round with zero keyholing. There is of course less velocity and recoil than with MK7 ball,but I shoot at 100 yard targets,so my shoulder and the 71 year old #5 are happier.
I have now started loading the old brass I have been hording for years. I kept seeing sizable difference in load data for H4895 from different sources,so I emailed Hornady for advise. They replied with their latest data on H4895 and recomended also using Varget. I have worked up the load to 35 gr of that powder,the CCI primers and I'm happy with the results. I will keep what is left of the PPU rounds for my Lithgow #1 MK3* as that rifle likes the round.

[25-5]

John. You will like both powders. I have used them with great result in the A303, Garand, & M1A. Working on the No.4.
Just for reference, I progressed up to 39.1gr Varget. That's max from the Hornady book. Based on what you said I looked on the Hodgdon site and they max at 42gr.
The sources are close in the H4895. More than one source is best.
Good luck and thanks for the OP.

[Bruce_in_Oz]

Just be careful "loading down" with the heavy / long bullets.

Too slow and, even with the 1:10" twist in the barrels, they will be marginally stable. They MAY "settle down" after a few hundred yards or they may not.

Folks living where it snows a lot have an additional "factor".

COLD air is denser than we get here in sub-tropical Brisbane, for instance. Thus, the bullet requires more "spin" to plough through it without wandering off. Reduced velocities mean reduce spin-rate and consequent reduced stability.

Recall the early days of the M-16 and its dinky 55gn (boat-tailed) bullet. The "official" reason for the change from Stoner and Sullivan's 1:14" twist was that the bullets were grouping poorly in Arctic conditions. Thus, just before committing a LOT of these rifles to the "South East Asian War Games", they started changing the twist to 1:12". The "unintended consequence" of this move was that a bullet that was "just stable' at "most" temperatures, became much more stable; to the point that the "interesting" terminal ballistic behaviour in "organic materials" changed.

There were a lot of wild stories about how the rifle was designed with a "secret" muzzle device, to make the bullets tumble from the point of departure.YEAH!!…RIIIIGHT!!!!.......

What was happening was that 1:14" twist was fine in warm AIR, but the "transition" to "Warm ballistic gel equivalent" threw Greenhill's formula out the window in a big way, as it does with ANY spinning projectile. A "denser" medium" requires a faster twist rate. The faster twist meant a slightly longer transition to "instability, which, at 5.56 M-193 velocities, meant the bullet could be at the point of exit from the "gel" before starting to become seriously unstable.

By the way, the 124gn. bullet of the 7.62 x39 does EXACTLY the same thing.

Hence the hairy-chested stories that got bigger with every media retelling of the "M-16 story", of limbs being ripped off, etc., etc.. These have gone into "folk-lore".

However, ANY bullet striking calcium-based support structures in the "organic ballistic gel" WILL be RADICALLY disturbed and behave in an "interesting", but not precisely predictable manner.

[DocAV]

Solution to your "Boattail" and diameter problems.
Get AV Ballistics Tech Services CNC turned Mark VII profile ( but 154grain) Projies.

Made of Half-hard 60/40 brass, on the same principle as the French "Balle 86D" which revolutionised bullet design in 1897, by using a solid, swaged and turned 90/10 alloy. Used through WW I and into WW II.

Our AVB Bullets are simply turned from 9,5mm (3/8th") Rod to ensure concentricity ( 5/16th does cut "out of round". WE have just taken delivery of our third Production lot of 10,000 plus, (the other Two Lots sold out in just over Two years).

And the Prices are reasonable (incl.GST).
One can load to Bullet weight, or simply use the original 37-42grains Powder or Cordite of the Military MarkVII load. Accuracy is good to excellent depending on Rifle Barrel, Bullets are 0,311" +/- 0,0005.
Can be used in .303, 7,62x54R, 7,7 Japanese, and 7,65 Argentine. Flat base upsets beautifully to accommodate variable grooving.

Contact us on av_ballistics@hotmail.com for details of Pricing, Mailing, etc.

Will be at the Ipswich Gun Show (Brisbane Area show) November 12-13. Just inside the entrance. Will have over 2000 .303s there, and also like quantities of CNC .30 cal M2, L2A2, Balle 86D, and Steyr M30 S ( for 8x56R)...7,9mm S and sS will be arriving late December.

Doc AV
AVB-TS
Brisbane Down under in the Deep North

[André]

My .303 Br. L-E N°4 MkI* shoots quite well with 174 SMK / N 140 / 40.0 but, considering the present cost of SMK's, I decided to try bulk (500) 174 PPU FMJ. Prior to loading them, I discovered that their weight varied from 172.2 to 174.2, a full 2.0 g !! I then weighted each of them, segregating lots not more than .2 g apart (honestly, I know of more pleasant occupations...). Anyway, I handloaded some ammo, starting at 39.0 to ascertain that my pet load of 40.0 g was still ok with the new bullet. I then burned 5 shots to bring down my sights to POA at 100 meters before settling down and and carefully firing my last 10 rounds. I was pleasantly surprised to recover a 10-shot group of 7,2 cm (2.5 MOA), over issue iron sights ! Weighting lots is a tedious affair but the reward is bullets as good as SMK, at 1/3 of the cost... I intend to repeat the experience with .308 bullets which I use a lot (.308 Win, .30-06, .300 win, 7,5x55).

[bombdoc]

Just a word to the wise if you are shooting in UK on military ranges, and have just read the AV tech entry about lathe cut .303 bullets...!

You are not allowed to use solid brass/bronze bullets on Ministry of Defence ranges! ... don't blame me! Apparently the MoD range design folks' ballistic computer program thinks they will escape the safety trace!

On the flat base/boat tail bullet argument.. ballistically, boat tails are not considered significant at supersonic velocities.. the reduced drag only applies at trans/sub sonic velocities. There is however a difference in the bearing surface of the bullet will make a difference depending on the state of the leed and throat..

The Mk 8 boat tailed bullet was introduced for use with the Vickers machine gun as it extended the range of the projectile past 1000 yards where the projectile velocity drops below supersonic and the base drag increased. Despite the popularly held belief that it was "more powerful" it was just optimised for longer ranges beyond that which was relevant for rifle use. Vickers were regularly used at long ranges for area targets.