Need help identifying an OLD rifle..

[Enslaved87]

Pictures should be attached. It is an old percussion gun and I cannot pinpoint its origin. I assume it was once military because it does have a large bayonet lug. That said, I have found rifles that look kind of similar from Europe but nothing just like it. I should mention, there is not a single stamp/cartouche or marking of any type anywhere on this thing.

Information

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[browningautorifle]

Welcome to the forum, there'll be someone along shortly to help I should think. Have you shot this one? Know what caliber it is for sure?

[Eaglelord17]

I believe the correct term for this style of rifle is a Schuetzen. My understanding is the countries which were interested in shooting these types of rifles were Germany, Switzerland (large German population) and America (early on a large German population). This one is set up in a more military format which wasn't uncommon back in the day as you might be expected to take your rifle with you to war. Figuring out the caliber might be able to allow you to narrow it down better as certain countries would be more likely to use certain calibers (I believe the Swiss preferred .43 caliber but don't take my word for it, this isn't my area of expertise).

Some pictures of the front and back of the rear sight might also help a bit.

Hopefully that might give you a good area to start searching if someone doesn't already know on here and show up.

[muffett.2008]

Eaglelord is on the money, there should be markings under the woodline and on the back of the lockplate if you wish to remove it to check.

[Enslaved87]

Thank you all for the quick response! I haven't shot it, nor have I slugged the bore yet. But my eyeball guess is somewhere around .60 or .70 cal, it is quite large. I will try and get a measurement today. This also has one of the strangest rear sights I have ever seen, it's actually quite cool. With that said, I have had this thing apart down to the very last nook and cranny and there are zero marks. My uneducated guess was swiss made, however I still can't find one like it anywhere else. Which I would expect to see others if it's former military? In any event, thanks a bunch for your help.

[Enslaved87]

Here is the closest thing I could find on the net. And yet, it is still quite different.

L. Pasteur .62 cal Original Military Target Percussion Rifle

[browningautorifle]

it is still quite different.

Yes, they will be. Even if made by the same man, they were all done as a one off...but close.

[Enslaved87]

So I measured the bore diameter it is right around .60 cal.

[Patrick Chadwick]

A great find!

The style is indeed the old "schuetzen" style as found in Austria, Germany and Switzerland.
The backsight is not just old, it is positively archaic, from the (flint) "stone age". I was just about to write that it could be a "drum & nipple" conversion of a flintlock when the above post appeared, and one look at the lockplate reveals that it is indeed a conversion. You can see that the flintlock pan casting has been cut out (and a ragged edge remains).

I have two such conversions, one done expertly and one by the village blacksmith, both acquired in my fruitless search for an original flintlock target rifle. Alas, just about every "serious rifleman's" flintlock was converted to percussion in the 19th century as the serious user wished to maintain its utility in the percussion era.

It is not a military rifle, but a predecessor of the type of private militia rifle that later became the Swiss target rifle. Military rifles did not usually (although tempted, I'm avoiding the use of the word "never") have either set triggers or the deeply curved "schuetzen" buttplate. The fitting of a bayonet lug may have been done for hunting guns in the 18th century, on a sort of "it might come in handy for finishing off wild boar" basis, as I have seen such fittings elsewhere, but I rather think it would have been a militia requirement for drill purposes.

For identification and dating, that "bell-tower" backsight is possibly the most important feature. Even Viscount Bury's 1864 Manual of Rifling and Rifle Sights (which has some wierd and wonderful contraptions) has nothing quite like it. Looks like it needs a heavy dose of penetrating oil and then some careful adjustment.

So more photos of the backsight please!

BTW. The foresight button is more appropriate to a shotgun. I suspect that it is not original.

Note that the "Pasteur" rifle also has micro-groove rifling. Although the two rifles are not identical, there is a strong family resemblance, suggesting that both came from the same broad area and period.

[Enslaved87]

A great find!

The style is indeed the old "schuetzen" style as found in Austria, Germany and Switzerland.
The backsight is not just old, it is positively archaic, from the (flint) "stone age". I was just about to write that it could be a "drum & nipple" conversion of a flintlock when the above post appeared, and one look at the lockplate reveals that it is indeed a conversion. You can see that the flintlock pan casting has been cut out (and a ragged edge remains).

I have two such conversions, one done expertly and one by the village blacksmith, both acquired in my fruitless search for an original flintlock target rifle. Alas, just about every "serious rifleman's" flintlock was converted to percussion in the 19th century as the serious user wished to maintain its utility in the percussion era.

It is not a military rifle, but a predecessor of the type of private militia rifle that later became the Swiss target rifle. Military rifles did not usually (although tempted, I'm avoiding the use of the word "never") have either set triggers or the deeply curved "schuetzen" buttplate. The fitting of a bayonet lug may have been done for hunting guns in the 18th century, on a sort of "it might come in handy for finishing off wild boar" basis, as I have seen such fittings elsewhere, but I rather think it would have been the militia influence.

For identification and dating, that "bell-tower" backsight is possibly the most important feature. Even Viscount Bury's 1864 Manual of Rifling and Rifle Sights (which has some wierd and wonderful contraptions) has nothing quite like it. Looks like it needs a heavy dose of penetrating oil and then some careful adjustment.

So more photos of the backsight please!

BTW. The foresight button is more appropriate to a shotgun. I suspect that it is not original.

Thank you for the Input, it's very helpful indeed.
I'm glad you feel the same way as I do about that rear sight. It seems kind of silly, but at the same time it is so bizarre that it stole me heart the first time I layed eyes on it.