Group Comment -Which No 4 Should I lean towards?

[22SqnRAE]

G'Day All,

Feeling like opening a can of worms here, just for a bit of fun.

Currently have 3 off No 4's being offered to me for sale:

• No 4 Mk 1* Long Branch 1942
• No 4 Mk 1* Savage 1943
• No 4 Mk 1/2 Fazakerley 1943/56 FTR

All in similar condition, all around similar price, 1/2 being a little dearer.

Which one should I lean toward, and why do you feel that way inclined?

Just for fun, just a conversation starter, don't take it too seriously!

Thanks for your thoughts and comments in advance. Will be interesting to hear your passions!

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[DiegoMenendez]

I like Savages for their wood and finish. Also most parts are stamped S, so easier for me to tell the rifle is original.

Long Branch would be second for me, assuming it's not an FTR.

Generally it comes down to the rifle though. I really like grooved hand guards, forends with low wood for where the magazine cutoff would have been if they kept doing it, early cocking pieces, and the milled adjustable rear sights.

[CINDERS]

Buy all three see which one is the pick of the litter for condition and grouping then if you wish flog the others chances are you will keep all three they are that addictive..............................ENFIELDITIS !

[Frederick303]

I would say :

bore condition first, including throat

Price second.

Long term WWII original samples will hold their value more than FTR rifles. If in the US of A the Savage has a cross over appeal to US WWII collectors, if original they will pay a lot. FTR rifles, not so much.

[Homer]

For fun I say the savage. Always preferred them over the rest.

[lngstrt]

The 1/2 ... less of them loose in the world??

[22SqnRAE]

Buy all three see which one is the pick of the litter for condition and grouping then if you wish flog the others chances are you will keep all three they are that addictive..............................ENFIELDITIS !

Ha ha, from a Sandgroper that's a brave suggestion of believing the Constabulary will be that accommodating. But I like your thinking... Thank you.

---------- Post added at 02:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

I would say :

bore condition first, including throat

Price second.

Long term WWII original samples will hold their value more than FTR rifles. If in the US of A the Savage has a cross over appeal to US WWII collectors, if original they will pay a lot. FTR rifles, not so much.

Very helpful thoughts, there Frederick303, thank you. I appreciate the knowledge.

[CINDERS]

Depends on what your going to use them for if on an open license then you may have a bit of explaining to do I have 2 on open a No.4 & MkIII and that's it, the other 4 are on club support and with that you can wiggle around a bit say the Savage & Faz or the L/B may have 2 different battle sights just make up a shoot like a 3-600m flip sight say it is for that type of sight, the Singer say its for that type of shoot over varying ranges. When I brought my 1944 BSA M47C T I put down WWII sniper rifles only match leaving wiggle room if I can afford to get a HT for WWI sniper rifle and a post WWII sniper rifle as I would dearly love an L42 even though it is in a different caliber but that is just dreaming.

There are allot of things to consider with them Frederick is on the right track but you really have to dig into them preferably getting down to stripping is right down and fully inspected. This may sound OTT but with the price of them here in Aus and spares in short supply you need to be granular.
The worst thing I did was shove a bore scope down my 303's as in the day barrel care was not on the priority as long as it grouped their service life may have been measured in days with attrition at the front they were making plenty more believe me, as PL says if it is grouping well but the bore looks cruddy then why change something that is working.
The draws need to be looked at as my T's were flogged out and buying from the east I had to go on face value and what I was told by the owner, an all matching would be nice but chances are they may not all match but better if they do, I have seen POS No.4's that you say holy cr*p what a dog but shoot they do and very well I have seen prima donna ones that just group no better than a handle full of wheat.
I like Long B's for some reason followed by Maltby the only reason I have Savages is because they were at a good price and local plus I knew the rifles as well as having shot them, both have helped me come 2nd for 2 consecutive years and 1st last year in state run as issued shoots last years was a 3 range multiple position shoot.

Take your time if you have some one that is experienced in them it may help to seek their input by looking at them first hand etc if you have a gunsmith friend who can assist all the better.

[22SqnRAE]

Depends on what your going to use them for if on an open license then you may have a bit of explaining to do I have 2 on open a No.4 & MkIII and that's it, the other 4 are on club support and with that you can wiggle around a bit say the Savage & Faz or the L/B may have 2 different battle sights just make up a shoot like a 3-600m flip sight say it is for that type of sight, the Singer say its for that type of shoot over varying ranges. When I brought my 1944 BSA M47C T I put down WWII sniper rifles only match leaving wiggle room if I can afford to get a HT for WWI sniper rifle and a post WWII sniper rifle as I would dearly love an L42 even though it is in a different caliber but that is just dreaming.

There are allot of things to consider with them Frederick is on the right track but you really have to dig into them preferably getting down to stripping is right down and fully inspected. This may sound OTT but with the price of them here in Aus and spares in short supply you need to be granular.
The worst thing I did was shove a bore scope down my 303's as in the day barrel care was not on the priority as long as it grouped their service life may have been measured in days with attrition at the front they were making plenty more believe me, as PL says if it is grouping well but the bore looks cruddy then why change something that is working.
The draws need to be looked at as my T's were flogged out and buying from the east I had to go on face value and what I was told by the owner, an all matching would be nice but chances are they may not all match but better if they do, I have seen POS No.4's that you say holy cr*p what a dog but shoot they do and very well I have seen prima donna ones that just group no better than a handle full of wheat.
I like Long B's for some reason followed by Maltby the only reason I have Savages is because they were at a good price and local plus I knew the rifles as well as having shot them, both have helped me come 2nd for 2 consecutive years and 1st last year in state run as issued shoots last years was a 3 range multiple position shoot.

Take your time if you have some one that is experienced in them it may help to seek their input by looking at them first hand etc if you have a gunsmith friend who can assist all the better.

Cinders,

Excellent comment, thank you. You've gone above an beyond.

You raise a very good point here in Oz, re: the small and expensive market. We pay way too much and I'm really envious of the Yanks and their large and very competitive market. Also, the approach of many collectors on here, they are sticklers for value in their sales, which is a good thing. We seem to be bound by 'take it or leave it, there's little choice otherwise...' attitude.

The difficulty in serious inspection is distance. I've handled one of the rifles and feel comfortable knowing a little about its feel, look and maintenance. I used the borescope and got a good feel for the quality of the barrel and it's life (much better than my No 1 Mk III*s) and pulled out the head space gauges to see how it fared, but am only going to be able to handle one other. The final one is too far away and the owner seems knowledgeable enough, but they have a vested interest in selling the rifle, so 'salesmanship' tends to cloud critical judgement from years on the range with the rifle.

I'm probably competent enough to be able to manage most initial mechanical inspections without a gunsmith. Not suggesting I know all they do, not implying I have all the details ready for a methodical inspection. But certainly feel confident to go looking for the main wear points and assess the overall condition, maintenance and originality of the rifle.

As for the holes in paper down range, well, therein lies the largest and most uncontrollable variable - the firer! I won't be putting my hand up for the next Queens Shoot.

Its interesting how many are on the market at the moment because they've sat in the safe for '... many years...' untouched. I suppose the real rifles are not as attractive as plastic and high powered optics? (OK, that probably wasn't called for and those whom raised to the bait, stand down! Just levity, folks...)

Your comments on assessing from the East coast are thought provoking, as I've bought two from the West. How do you go about narrowing down the variability in what the seller is trying to have you accept, without being able to hold it? Photos are certainly the essential component, so how do you get past the usual "...Oh, it's god a good shiny barrel, mate..." when you know full well that it's the dark areas of the grooves that you want to know about, not the immediate bearing surfaces of the lands which should be polished if working properly? Few punters are equipped with a borescope, so they're not in a position to send you down bore piccies...

All good information, and I think your final comment is one that sits well with me. I'll take my time and talk to each of the vendors patiently and see how much they want me to buy their rifles. I doubt any of the three would be a dud.

[CINDERS]

The only 2 guns I have brought ex-east have been nightmares my Parker Hale 1200 Safari Grade 22/250 was as you say "shoot - by jove it can shoot bloody accurate rifle in good nik...." so I brought it for $750 got it here and the group at 100m was a dinner plate as I had previously owned a PH 1200 Safari Grade 22/250 the accuracy was not there that one was stolen along with a Lithgow 1945 MkIII.
So I had a re-crown $100 same dinner plate bit the bullet new barrel waited 6 months for a 1-12TR Bartlein 28" tube (Frank from Bartlein is a really good chap helped me heaps) so that was fitted for an all up $1,000 (see where this is headed?) now I have found out the accuiracy is still not under 1.0MOA/100 why the old gunsmith put a long throat on the chamber and when I sat the rounds at 2.350" COAL they were jumping @200-thou!
Now the pills are barely in the case with a 20 thou jump making me wonder about their concentricity after they have hit the feed ramp as it still wont group and I have all the bells and whistles for setting jumps, trimming, turning, uniforming, shoulder measuring & bumping and so on till the cows come home??
So now it is a case chop 1/4" off the chamber end re-reaming with a standard throat and go from there my wife has named it "The Black Hole Rifle" as money disappears very fast with it.

My T is also ex east from a friend (sadly the deal cost a friendship) who did not miss me in price but same same this had a 20moa at a 100 with my hand loads pulled the gun down after discovered by accident it was rocking on the trigger guard screw front even though it was rock tight, when I got the bottom fore stock off the draws were smashed to pieces literally so Ken Davis the Master Stock-maker fixed it with a method he devised for such an issue it will never again need the draws fixing. So that was an extra $250 ontop of the all up $6,900.00 the rifle cost with a very solid aluminium transport case.
Purists may cringe at the idea but from my side who cares because I will be long gone before they ever need doing again

Nice assortment of weaponry you have can see your dilemma..........