WWII special assault rifles built for the SAS only

[mrclark303]

Stirling got Churchills signature and used it to make up his own "acquire whatever I need" order ... A great example of a great man's out if the box thinking...

[Daan Kemp]

Many 'things' were modified in wartime to suit, with little documentation.

It is doubtful they would modify a No 1/4 rifle as there is very little to modify. Shortening saves very little in weight and length. The British were actually quite strict on all such funny stuff, because logistical support is the biggest problem.

Their equipment was purpose built/developed for long distance movement, high intensity operations, long distance return. Raiding in the desert would be a good description, actually the transport would be the most purpose built of all. Not intended or equipped for pitched battles.

The SAS were mainly vehicle based and dependent on high firepower, thus machine guns and SMG. Little use for rifles although they would have had some.

Sniper equipment? Ever done a couple days cross country in a wartime Jeep? Not having it securely protected against vibration and shaking would have made it useless. I doubt very much if they would have sniped as it wasn't their goal. After sniping they would have had to run as retribution would have been immediate.

[GeeRam]

Those jeeps used by Stilings LRDP SAS chaps looked pretty purpose built see pic also note the Sykes Fairbairn knife much favoured by the SAS on the Rt hip of the Lieutenant closest to camera, another a pic of Stirling with the jeeps.
I would classify those jeeps as an assault weapon purpose built for the task.

Not purpose built, as they were all modified 'in-theatre' by the SAS to suit what they needed to do, as did the LRDG, and later, some of the Divisional Recce units, notably the 1st Airborne Recce at Arnhem.

SAS/LRDG in North Africa made use of a lot of captured German and Italian kit/weapons if it suited their purpose, but then again so did other units. Scrounging kit of anyone that had something you wanted, was a prime skill of most WW2 soldiers, as the logistics of supply of kit to the front line was anything but good (unless you were US forces).


e.g.



Most kit used by the WW2 SAS as said, was as issued to the Commando's (they were formed first) and later the Airborne troops, including the FS fighting knife, silenced STEN and other toys.

[browningautorifle]

, as the logistics of supply of kit to the front line was anything but good

Where did you get that tidbit? My dad never once mentioned problems. He fought from the beginning to the end, Sicily, Italy, France and Germany, Holland and Belgium ...the whole thing.

[GeeRam]

Where did you get that tidbit?

Most British Army WW2 veterans I've spoken too (and that was many, as being a volunteer with several associations back in the late 80's and through the 90's incl 1st AB Recce Association and 43rd Recce Association) and my Dad also spoke of having to learn how to scrounge kit during his 12 month tour in Palestine in 46/47.

[Seaforth72]

SAS jeeps in North Africa - These were standard Willys MB jeeps, almost certainly the MB-BRT model, so marked on the data plate. The BRT is believed to mean “British Contract”. They were modified in North Africa by local workshops. The machine guns were usually the Vickers Gas Operated (G.O.), often called the Vickers “K Gun”. Light, fast firing, drum magazine, .303” and available as the RAF / Desert Air Force considered them to be obsolescent. These Vickers G.O. are often confused with stripped down Lewis Guns by authors and researchers. M2 Browning .50 caliber aircraft MGs were also used.

Willys-Overland MB jeeps were those supplied to other countries mainly. The Ford GPW vehicles tended to be issued to the U.S.Army in 1942. I have owned many ex-military jeeps (MB, MB-BRT, WLU-440 M-PERS-1, GPW, GPA, M38CDN and M38A1 CDN2) and have driven many of the prototypes and experimental models (BRC, GP, GP 4-wheel steer, half-track and TUG and the GP Budd bodied prototype serial number GP-2.)

The SAS modifications to their jeeps in North Africa mainly consisted of adding another spare wheel (many sharp rocks in areas of the North African deserts), adding Jerricans , removing windshield, rear seat, bows and top, and several radiator gille bars (to improve air flow and lighten the weight - not too many trees to bump into out there). They also added an overflow tank hooked up to the radiator. This latter device conserved water as it collected steam wanting to escape the radiator, condensed it and the water was sucked back into the radiator when it cooled down. These were common on the Canadian built CMP trucks in North Africa at the time.

Later in Europe the SAS modified jeeps (MB, MB-BRT, GPW, WLU-440 M-PERS-1) even more. They added armoured shields for the radiator and front crew. Self-sealing fuel tanks were added. Sometimes a rear armour plate was added. Rear facing machine guns and often a Bren Gun for the driver (mounted on a post) as well.

At least one jeep was also equipped with a fixed machine gun on each front fender, operated by the driver. This created a vehicle that all of us have wished we had when other crazy drivers cut us off on the road - fighter plane style guns and all the driver had to do is point the vehicle and press a button! James Bond’s “Q” simply put the guns out of sight in the Aston-Martin, but the concept was the same. This same jeep also mounted a U.S. Bazooka at head level between the driver and front passenger, which could be classed as “Offensive Driving”!

Sub-machine guns and M1 Carbines as well as Colt .45 1911/1911A1 pistols were carried and later, in 1944-45 onwards, the Canadian made Inglis No.2 Mk.I* pistol (Browning High Power / Grand Puissance Model 1935 9mm) which was John Browning’s much improved and simplified design over his venerable 1911, finished off after his death by an FN engineer named Saive. One can argue about the merits of .45” vs. 9mm of course.

The SAS definitely had some No.4 (T) sniper rifles in use in North West Europe (what Americans called ETO). A photograph recently turned up showing some SAS (Belgian 5 SAS Company?) troopers cleaning a No.4 (T) and a pair of Vickers G.O. Guns in the twin gun SAS jeep mount. Sniper rifles were little used in North Africa. No one carried the No.15 Mk.I wooden chest into battle as it was simply a storage and shipping crate.

“The Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife”, aka “the F-S Fighting Knife”, was common issue for British raiding units by 1942. The model shown on the left hip of the jeep driver is the knurled grip straight guard version (now called the second pattern by collectors). I have several including my father’s issue one that is the same, though named to him on the blade by Wilkinson’s when he was attached to No.4 Commando in 1943. They are a very effective killing knife.

[Lee Enfield]

[/COLOR]The SAS gets the press because they still exist, but LRDG and Popski's Private Army and the various SOE and navy and commando type small unit groups are largely forgotten.

A number of the "Wel" Group items were developed for these organizations and saw extremely limited use.

There have been a number of excellent books published in the last 15 years, including several about the Frythe at Welwyn,

Look up The Department of Miscellaneous Weapons Development.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1985

[Badger]

Member "mudgee" emailed me the following pics of the piece being discussed in this thread and asked me to post them on his behalf.

He's asking other members to validate the authenticity of this piece which he's located at a gun show.

Time is of the essence for him, so a quick reply would be appreciated by him.

Regards,
Doug

[bigduke6]

I very much doubt it............

[TomH]

I would have thought that any clandestine unit would be unlikely to mark their weapons with their units initials in case they were lost/captured on a mission.