Future Darwin Award Nominee

[Aragorn243]

I belong to many facebook milsurps groups and a guy posted about his Italian Vetterli rifle he got for the bargain price of $160.00. He has shot it numerous times, ignores all advice to the contrary and believes the danger lies in A) the barrel sleeve melting out increasing headspace and B) the converted bolt (from rimfire) (also ignores being told it's the Swiss rifles that are rimfires).

So we begin with a rifle never intended for the pressures of 6.5 Carcano, don't understand that it's soft steel in the receiver which stretches and top it off with this being one of the most corroded examples of a barrel I have ever seen. And you guys have seen some of mine.

I did my duty, I tried to warn him.

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[bob q]

How is the steel of my 1892 Vetterli made at Terni softer than the steel of my 1892 Terni Carcano ? The Vetterli has 2 large locking lugs at the rear and a sleeved [ stronger ] barrel [ + chamber ] . With the long bolt body in front of the lugs , the worst that would happen is a slow increase in headspace as the bolt compacted . Yes they would not last for decades of use like front line weapons , but they are not going to blow up . The Vetterli was loaded with smokeless for decades in the original caliber . The Italian military would not issue a dangerous rifle , they were used without ant undo problems in WWI . I know of a guy who put at least 200 rounds of Norma through his with no problems .

[RCS]

I have seen photos of the French Gras 1874 (original 11x59Rmm) converted to fire the 8mm Lebel as an emergency WW1 rifle. Do not have any details on service. I would not shoot a Vetterli in any caliber

[browningautorifle]

I would not shoot a Vetterli in any caliber

I had an old Italian that was a centerfire so I made cases out of .348 Winchester cases cut off at the shoulder and primed, filled like a shotgun shell with Pyrodex. I poured wax in to hold the powder in place. I used a .44 semi WC lead bullet of about 240 gr and it shot about to point of aim at 200 yd. No problems...

[Aragorn243]

How is the steel of my 1892 Vetterli made at Terni softer than the steel of my 1892 Terni Carcano ? The Vetterli has 2 large locking lugs at the rear and a sleeved [ stronger ] barrel [ + chamber ] . With the long bolt body in front of the lugs , the worst that would happen is a slow increase in headspace as the bolt compacted . Yes they would not last for decades of use like front line weapons , but they are not going to blow up . The Vetterli was loaded with smokeless for decades in the original caliber . The Italian military would not issue a dangerous rifle , they were used without ant undo problems in WWI . I know of a guy who put at least 200 rounds of Norma through his with no problems .

The obvious answer to your question is you have no idea how many rounds have gone through that rifle. That is what makes them dangerous and why it is advised to not shoot them with full power loads. They could have been fired 10 times, they could have been fired 1000 times and the next shot could be the one that fails.

[bob q]

So you are saying shooting the rifle make the steel's molecular structure change and it becomes softer ? If you read my post you would see the rifle is not just going to "fail " . The headspace will just increase [ just like an Enfield , but the Vet is stronger ] until it will not set off the round . I have put 1000's of rounds through about 20 different Vetterli's of all calibers with no problem . I also shoot my 8mm Gras rifles , again with no problem and they have NO locking lugs . But my experience as a custom gunsmith and specializing in old military rifles, running a ballistic lab , testing ammo pressure , developing new cartridges , test firing over 2000 different military rifles over 30 years , running military rifle matches every week for 30 years at my range , pales to yours on Youtube .

[browningautorifle]

But my experience

OK...but we don't REALLY know who you are. So getting acrimonious won't help.

[Lee Enfield]

How is the steel of my 1892 Vetterli made at Terni softer than the steel of my 1892 Terni Carcano ? The Vetterli has 2 large locking lugs at the rear and a sleeved [ stronger ] barrel [ + chamber ] . With the long bolt body in front of the lugs , the worst that would happen is a slow increase in headspace as the bolt compacted . Yes they would not last for decades of use like front line weapons , but they are not going to blow up . The Vetterli was loaded with smokeless for decades in the original caliber . The Italian military would not issue a dangerous rifle , they were used without ant undo problems in WWI . I know of a guy who put at least 200 rounds of Norma through his with no problems .

You're action would have been carburized and quenched. The issue isn't "softness", it is embrittlement.

This is common to all carburized materials - especially when we realize that temperature was determined by colour changes sensed by human eyes. Often varied by several hundred degrees depending on ambient light and other factors.

Embrittlement of steels


http://faculty.up.edu/lulay/failure/Lesson3.pdf

So you are saying shooting the rifle make the steel's molecular structure change and it becomes softer ? If you read my post you would see the rifle is not just going to "fail " . The headspace will just increase [ just like an Enfield , but the Vet is stronger ] until it will not set off the round . I have put 1000's of rounds through about 20 different Vetterli's of all calibers with no problem . I also shoot my 8mm Gras rifles , again with no problem and they have NO locking lugs . But my experience as a custom gunsmith and specializing in old military rifles, running a ballistic lab , testing ammo pressure , developing new cartridges , test firing over 2000 different military rifles over 30 years , running military rifle matches every week for 30 years at my range , pales to yours on Youtube .

Not "softer", brittleness is the real concern.

[Aragorn243]

And again. You want to be the one the rifle fails on. Be my guest. I know of no reputable gun expert that recommends shooting Vetterli carcanos with full power loads. NONE. And I obviously don’t consider you one.

[bob q]

I have no reason to argue with someone who clearly has no idea , other than being on youtube . Did you know the M-96/11 is a straight pull version of the Vetterli action , same size bolt body , same size locking lugs . The Swiss shoot GP-11 in those . How would you explain that . My answers are clearly above your understanding , but they are not for you . That are for others who my want to learn something .