Future Darwin Award Nominee

[Aragorn243]

LOL, Like I said, you continue shooting your vetterli's with full power loads. I have no intention of doing so or recommending anyone else does either.

[CINDERS]

I don't fuel my 303's with full power loads as they have a past that to me is unknown but is relation to my 6.5 x 284 which is a totally different animal it needs to be at the top end of the pressure scale to be accurate that I have no probs with as I brought it new.
My 46gns of AR 2209 (H414, 4350 or IMR 4350 for you chaps) is still 2 grains under Max as in Nick Harvey's 9th Ed.

I have said to people when training them in safety - You may have done the same job a 1000 times and then one day something will be that little bit different which you wont pick up on because you have done it all before with no problems and that my friend is when you will get bitten.
My last industry I played in was power generation where we had 110 tonnes of steel doing 3,000RPM driven by 300 degrees celcius of steam at 20 atmospheres pressure and cooled the generator end of the turbine with Hydrogen plus each boiler 8 of contains 90 tonnes of steam which expands at 1500 times by volume with all the other goodies that go with it like 99% pure hydrochloric & sulphuric acid on site.
Yes siree you can do a thing 1000's of time then one day you will miss something through familiarity and suffer the consequences usually in the above it is fatal which they did have a fatal at the site before I was there.

[Merle]

I belong to many facebook milsurps groups and a guy posted about his Italian Vetterli rifle he got for the bargain price of $160.00. He has shot it numerous times, ignores all advice to the contrary and believes the danger lies in A) the barrel sleeve melting out increasing headspace and B) the converted bolt (from rimfire) (also ignores being told it's the Swiss rifles that are rimfires).

So we begin with a rifle never intended for the pressures of 6.5 Carcano, don't understand that it's soft steel in the receiver which stretches and top it off with this being one of the most corroded examples of a barrel I have ever seen. And you guys have seen some of mine.

I did my duty, I tried to warn him.

Do you know if he's shooting factory loads, or black powder handloads?

[Aragorn243]

He's bragging about shooting factory loads. Rifle has severe pitting on the exterior also. Not typical pitting either, kind of snake shaped, fairly deep in spots also.

[painter777]

Is this the model you refer to? I'm just trying to better understand this post..
M1870/87/15 Italian Vetterli
If so, is this the same that was converted to fire the 6.5x52mm Carcano round, by adding a 6.5mm barrel liner and a Carcano-style magazine?
The same that Wiki says: These conversions were never meant for extended firing with standard 6.5x52mm loads, as the smokeless powder 6.5×52mm cartridge generates higher pressure than the black powder 10.35×47mmR, but have withstood modern CIP proof firing without difficulty.

Also said to have still been popular because Surplus Vetterli rifles were used in "surprising number" by civilians in the U.S. for hunting deer through 1972.

Ch-p777

[Aragorn243]

Yes, that's the one. Better source than Wiki: The Italian Vetterli M70/87/15 6.5mm conversion : : CRsenal

The problem isn't that they can't shoot the modern load, they obviously have. It's that they can't shoot it indefinitely and no one knows how many times they were fired. They were issued to second line troops in WWI and colonial troops in @WWII.

Gun Boards has a rather long discussion on them and numerous first hand and second hand accounts of them failing with full power loads along with many who swear by them.

[painter777]

The problem isn't that they can't shoot the modern load, they obviously have. It's that they can't shoot it indefinitely and no one knows how many times they were fired.

Thx Aragorn for the follow up.

As an example just recently Jim/BAR and I were covering USGI M1 carbine .30 Cal receivers. Taking in to account that they need Mil Spec loads to properly function. Some owners try to use a little lighter powder load, 'trying to be easy on them'.
We've noticed what seems to be a increase in reports from owners having, what I'll call 'Metal Fatigue'.
I see and try to note to others 'Troubled Receivers' I come across on auction sites.
Receivers that show bowing, stretching and metal separation. Some with damage to the receiver locking shoulders from bolt failures/lug breakage.
These WWII produced rifles were built and inspected using the best materials of that era. But being that there is no way of knowing how many rounds they've fired, because of barrel replacements, or the type of ammo when not in Military hands, calls for continued close inspection.
I really try to be careful with arms this old. I'm more confident with my reloads than taking a chance on Commercial ammo, but that's me.

Getting Back On Topic:
Now in the case of the 'OLD' Vetterli 70/87/15 rifle:
After reading the link provided, I'd want no part of it, other than a collection piece because of it's history. But If many were used like stated earlier as - being popular well in to the 1970's (Pre-Internet) no telling how many incidents that were never heard of. Factor in the early conversions, years of use and overall condition, along with these bits from the article link:

The Italian Vetterli M70/87/15 6.5mm conversion : : CRsenal

The Vetterli 70/87/15 rifles were an emergency development for second line units and should have been disposed of after the war.

In 1915 the old guns were dusted off and a conversion process began again.

In the new Salerno-Method the barrels were drilled out and a sleeve of steel was fitted down them and soldered in place. This was then bored for the 6.5x52mm Carcano cartridge.

Collectors should be aware that the pressure generated by smokeless powder 6.5 is well beyond the original black powder cartridge.

These rifles were in no way altered for strength and were not intended to be fired excessively.

We cannot recommend using standard, commercially available 6.5 ammunition in these rifles.

Please be careful handling arms such as these that have been reworked so many times.

With so many Arms out there you can safely shoot, Why take the chance of shooting these against the advice of the experts? I worry about these being handed down over the upcoming years and the new owners 'Remembering' they were used shooting the 6.5 commercial ammunition.

In this link I found this bit of information about shooting and loads:
Shooting the Vetterli-Vitali 6,5mm Conversions...


Member Post: "After WWI large numbers of Vetterli-Carcanos were mounted on pedestals and turned into electric lamps by running the wires for the socket up through the barrel. The bolts were often welded shut at the chamber end from underneath where it is not visible. A LOT of the cheap Vetterli-Carcanos I see are actually "lamp guns" that hgave had the weld broken out. These welds were often no more that a "tack weld" but I would still question the effect of even that much heat on the metallurgy of a rifle that old which has already undergone major conversion."

Stay Safe Out There,
Charlie-Painter777

[browningautorifle]

Again, my Vetterly was an old Italian center fire and I made up pyrodex ammo with a lead bullet round. Probably pretty gentle. I shot it seldom and doubt it's been shot since if it even still exists... I sure wouldn't get too randy with an old rifle I couldn't be sure what had transpired over the century plus it was in existence. Like Charlie stated, we had talked about 70 year old carbines that are starting to give up from excessive time and ammo load...how can older be more stable?

[Aragorn243]

I'm trying to find one in the original caliber. I wouldn't worry about shooting that, they were designed for that load, not the Carcano 6.5 smokeless. I have owned two, still have one and both were in good condition. No issues with the sleeve. I figure one of these days I'll make up some reduced loads for it. I don't like having rifles I can't shoot even if I don't shoot them often. No way I'm firing surplus or commercial loads through it.

[CINDERS]

Wonder how Trail Boss would go for them keeping to say 100yds ranges.