RFI 1966 No.4 Mk.I?

[Havenot]

I own one of these. Appears to me to perhaps be a wartime manufactured Maltby(maybe) that got it's original markings scrubbed off the left side and new RFI markings applied to the right butt-socket to include serial number.

I've never seen another Indian No.4 quite like it and really didn't realize India issued the No.4 rifles in enough quantity to re-manufacture them. So what's the story on RFI No.4 Mk.I rifles?

Thanx Ht

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[Alan de Enfield]

At the end of UK production of the No4 tooling/machinery was mothballed - now the story develops.

Option 1) BSA tooling was sold to Pakistan (POF Wah)
Option 2) The Fazakerley tooling and machinery was sold to Pakistan. (POF Wah)

The BSA version is the 'common' internet story, but those who were there at the time suggest it was in fact Faz tooling that was sold off.
This gains more credence when you consider the Faz tooling produced the No4 Mk2, whilst BSA never produced the MK2


Pakistan primarily (initially) used the tooling for FTR rebuilds but it later emerged that they built up 'new' rifles, typical markings of the 'new-builds being :

No 4.MK.2
58/P.O.F./C117XX

And the Star & Crescent (Pakistan version NOT the Turkish version)

These new-built action & barrels have been seen with salvaged BSA, Savage and other manufacturers 'small parts'.

India has been at (almost non-stop) war with Pakistan and has acquired (captured / pick-ups ?) many No4 rifles.

Maybe some one has more to the story as to the FTR work Ishapore may have undertaken on the POF captured rifles.

[Ridolpho]

Havenot: According to Edwards ("India's Enfields....") many thousands of No. 4 rifles were used by India in the China-Burma-India theatre. Quite a while after the war factory rebuild programs occured in which rifles were upgraded to hung trigger (Mk1/2 or 1/3) or left in Mk I/I* configuration. Reynolds suggests the Mk 1/1* type had original factory markings left in place but new markings added to the right buttsocket. Try to post some photos of your rifle.

Ridolpho

[mrclark303]

As Ridolpho said, The British Indian army Divisions who fought the Japs in Burma went home with their kit at the end of the war, I should imagine India also purchased top up No4's from UK surplus stocks too.

The Indians have never been concerned with duplication of kit for the same job, its the same with their Air force, numerous types of fighter, from different countries, all nominally doing the same job!

It must lead to a massive and utterly chaotic stores and parts ordering system!

[Roger Payne]

From my limited exposure to Indian reworked No4 sniper's rifles it would indeed seem that, at least with these, where rifles were modified to Mk1/2 configuration they were also linished of original markings & re-marked by the Indians SMLE style, (with RFI & the date of the refurb on the RHS of the butt socket). IIRC the recceiver rings were also stamped with the new serial number. Rifles that were not upgraded to M1/2 generally seem to bear their original factory markings, date of manufacture & so on. I have a very well loved 1943 BSA 4T whose main evidence of Indian use are the markings in the butt stock & the 'Ishy' screw through the forend.

Incidentally, the 4T's were also reworked in the 1960's although all examples I have noted were done either in 1962 or 63.

[Havenot]

I dug the No.4 out of the gun room and gave it a look over just now. Indeed the new serial number is on the front receiver ring(right/upper)...bolt serial matches the rifle...magazine has a lined-out serial number and a matching number too. The original No.4 Mk.I is lined-out on the left receiver flat and a new No.4 Mk.I added ahead of it. If I recall it's still got the original type trigger system(identical to my jungle carbine). Barrel is two groove. Forearm has the 'Ishy screw'...and wood is walnut with grooved rear handguard. Had a sheet metal rear sight which I still have but I stuck a nice new 800yd milled No.5 Mk.I rear sight on it.

I bought this off a dealer's rack back in the 1990's and it has a small import stamp on the left receiver flat. An interesting phenomenon with this rifle was that the first time I tried to fire it there was no 'BANG'!....I went home and examined the deal...was lightly denting the primers and had a No.1 bolt head. I robbed the No.2 bolt head off my jungle carbine and it fired perfectly then. Somehow decided I needed a 3 or 4 bolt head...well no.4 bolt heads are non-existant...but a guy in Calgary Canada had No.3 bolt heads so I obtained one from him and have been satisfied ever since.

I will have to see about pics...my imgur and my anti-virus don't like each other. I can get pics up maybe using the sticky tutorial to post directly here

[Frederick303]

The Indians used the No 4 for their first grenade launching rifles that used the Energa 22 mm grenades. Later they introduced a spigot launcher for the N1 MK III, though based on Jac Wellers 1964 article on the topic it was after 1963.

India captured a lot of No4 rifles from Pakistan in the 1965 war.

They also issued them to police, though I am not sure about the time period.

The latest rebuilt I have seen was a July 1973 rebuild of a No 4 MK I, the serial corresponding to a 1945 Fazakerely.

I have seen No4 replacement stocks dated as late as RFI 77, which by that time would likely be police issue only.

[Havenot]

Looked the rifle over and cleaned the dust off it last night...pulled the front wood off(first time ever for me)...has the serial number stamped on the right barrel adjacent to the receiver serial...all nicely stove painted under the wood. Looks like RFI scrubbed a number off the left knox form like the left buttsocket was scrubbed. Does have the serial on the forearm up front. Trigger hangs off the trigger-guard

My guess is that the receiver and barrel are an original British assembly. I took some pics but have not attempted to post them yet.

I have not shot this rifle in a decade or better but it was superb with South African ball...this factor the main reason I put a milled No.5 Mk.I sight on it as the sheet metal ladder was sort-of floppy and the peep could not be relied on to hold elevation(couldn't find a milled No.4 sight at the time).

You guys are a wealth of info!...Thanx

[Alan de Enfield]

I put a milled No.5 Mk.I sight on it as the sheet metal ladder was sort-of floppy and the peep could not be relied on to hold elevation(couldn't find a milled No.4 sight at the time).

The calibrations on the sights bear little relevance to modern ammunition. They were calibrated for MKVII.

I have found that the No5 sight (800yd) gives 'smaller' adjustments (1/2 MOA against 1MOA) than the No4 sight so have changed my Savage No4 over to the No5 sight.

Some notes that I saved from a post some time ago (by Parashooter)

Parashooter – No4 Vs No5 Rear sight Threads

At least on these two examples (original sights), there appears to be a difference in screw diameter and pitch. Given the slightly coarser thread on the 800-yard sight, the "click value" would be some 10% greater than the 1300-yard sight if both were mounted on rifles with the same sight radius - except for the fact that the 1300-yard elevation screw is double-threaded, giving it an effective pitch approximately double that of the single-thread 800-yard screw.

On measuring the two sights shown, each click of the No.4's sight moves the slide .008" - vs. .0043" on the No.5's sight. Consequently, the 1300-yard sight gives very close to 1.0 MOA per click with the No.4 rifle's 28" sight radius while the 800-yard sight has a click value of ~0.66 MOA with the No.5's 23" sight radius and would yield ~0.55 MOA on a No.4 rifle.

[Havenot]

Yeh...the sight calibrations on most mil-surps may have once been calibrated to a specific cartridge loading....not so reliable in modern times. However good repeatable settings are still an asset if you have a notebook and pencil and shoot the rifle enough to develop reliable data.....my father called it 'dope'...which has an entirely different meaning in todays world.

Then again some ladder sights calibrations have never had much relevance to actual distance(meters/yards) and are there simply for reference to actual shooting discipline. An example being the old Winchester lever action standard carbine sights calibrated to 2000 somethings. This same sight could be found on anything from an M1873 .32-20 carbine to a M1894 .30-30 or M1886 in .45-90 and everything in between carbine-wise. A notebook and pencil plus some shooting are your friend.