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Thread: SMLE Trigger work and handguard question.

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  1. #11
    Really Senior Member englishman_ca's Avatar
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    Ok. I understand your frustration. Many of us have been where you are right now.

    I will try to give you some tips, but understand that I am not an apprentice served armourer, but only an enthusiastic amateur who has done a couple of dozen sets of wood from square one. I have experienced many perplexing problems, but always managed to fix them by working though the process step by step. It takes time. Follow Capt Laidlericon's instructions to the letter.
    ,
    What you have is fat wood. Fat in the body, fat in the barrel band inlets, fat in the draws, fat in the barrel channel. Replacement stocks are thus oversized as it is a lot easier to fit something up by removing wood than it is trying to add it. You will get there with patience, but there is a procedure and sequence to go through.

    So you have some extra triggers to bugger up, um , I mean adjust. That is good. The procedure has a learning curve.

    Not too sure about the cocking piece being marked DP. Somebody thought that is was worth marking DP so it would not be used in a live rifle. It might have been ground or modified sometime in the past, who knows why it is DP marked. I don't think that it is the likely cause of your trigger pull off problem but might cause other issues. Get rid of it.

    When you fit the stock to the action, are you happy with the bedding? The action sits right down in the wood. Good contact on the underside of the receiver? Have you smoke smudged the metal to see where it is touching when bedded down into the wood?
    Edges of the receiver ring not hanging up on anything? Barrel reinforce sitting on its inlet? Does the stock give upwards pressure on the underside of the barrel at the muzzle?

    Without the fore stock bedded and the action sitting down tight, you will not get anywhere with the trigger.

    Let me ask you a couple questions which might give us some clues. I spend hours at the bench making wood from scratch and always enjoy the stocking up part. To some it is a nightmare, but to me is hours of relaxed time at the bench.
    It can take me a week to get an action fitted, working on it every evening. It takes a lot of time. For the final final stages of stocking up, I use shaped scrapers to get in there and shave off the smallest amount of the wood to make things bed down. I probably fit and check the wood a hundred times in the process.

    Take the wood off, fit the front trigger guard screw bushing and mount the trigger guard. What do you get happening with the trigger pull off? Take some pics of the sear, trigger and cocking piece in the cocked position. Show us what is happening. We will adjust from there.

    With the trigger guard and wood removed, how much engagement of the sear are you getting on the cocking piece bent? You mentioned it was almost on the edge at rest? Take a pic for us an show how much engagement.

    Remove the bolt and take a peek down into the receiver from above. Look to where the upper face of the sear arm touches the underside of the receiver. It should be right there under the bolt way. Get a good light and see if there are any punch marks or any damage to the metal in the receiver, an eight of an inch above where the sear touches the corner edge of the receiver.
    I ask because this is where one can set the height of the sear at rest. The sear tip should sit a little bit away from the edge of the cocking piece edge to be taken up by first pressure on the trigger.

    Only when you are satisfied with everything is a go, then start stoning the bumps on the trigger. I have take off triggers in the bins where the bumps have been stoned down to almost nothing. So have at her, keep your original trigger aside and bugger up a spare one first.
    Last edited by englishman_ca; 08-04-2019 at 09:14 AM. Reason: speling

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  3. #12
    Really Senior Member Bruce_in_Oz's Avatar
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    Trigger-guard: Bent and/or TWISTED?

    Stock Collar (the steel tube between the trigger-guard and the body): Not the correct length?

    There was an official gauge and tool for evaluating and adjusting these collars; now virtually unobtainable and probably quite expensive, assuming someone knows what they have.

    Originally, the collar was adjusted to the fitted fore-end, thus it is NOT an interference fit in the wood of the fore-end. The collar is there for VERTICAL stability, not lateral.

    All this fitting, gauging, adjusting, rinse and repeat, was hugely expensive in skilled labour; done properly, it produced a superb end result, but was a bit of a worry when your system suddenly needed several hundred thousand rifles to make up for last months combat losses (see the butcher's bill for 1916 alone) and expanded recruit intake.



    Peter Laidlericon has hereabouts posted some detailed instructions on the finer points of getting these rifles RIGHT. Find them, print them, read and annotate / highlight as desired, then follow them in detail. Worth more than their weight in unobtainium!

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  5. #13
    Member tsquared82's Avatar
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    Thread Starter

    Work Continued

    Well, here are the images of what I am dealing with so far. I have replaced the "DP" cocking piece with an in-service one. Without any wood in the equation, the sear appears to rest nicely up on the cocking piece as seen in the images. The trigger guard is perfectly flat as has been mentioned in a few resources for accuracy. This leaves the trigger guard about a 1/4" from the trigger guard screw threads ((This is the point where the 1st stage touches the sear)). If I attempt to lift the trigger guard to the [proper?] level at about the height of the trigger guard collar, the trigger lowers the sear to a thou of releasing the cocking piece. It takes only a manual tap behind the cocking piece or a bump of the trigger [no or barely any engagement of the 2nd stage] to let the cocking piece fly forward. I've tried a few triggers, both NOS and used. All have the same issue. I've tried another trigger guard... same story. You can see that with the magazine in place, it demands the trigger guard to be at about the height of the collar/bushing.

    This is where I am being driven bananas.

    There is an image of the trigger hinge with a red circle around it. should I file that area back a bit to allow the trigger to rest further forward and allow the sear to relax some? Should I file the 1st stage? The sear?

    I've read the documents of Mr. Laidlericon. However a wealth of knowledge they are, they aren't helping in this particular instance of a rut.
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    Last edited by tsquared82; 08-19-2019 at 08:53 PM.

  6. #14
    Really Senior Member Bindi2's Avatar
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    The bushing goes between the trigger guard and the barrel. You do not show one.

  7. #15
    Member tsquared82's Avatar
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    I do have one, my apologies for not including it in the picture. In the image with the magazine in place, that is about the height it would be with my bushing in place. and when it is in there, it presents the described problem. The same scenario with the sear engagement on the cocking piece with the bushing there. I will try to get another image tomorrow. But the problem would have the same illustration. I left the bushing out of the images to show how close the trigger guard had to be to the barrel for the sear to be operating normal to my perception.

  8. #16
    Really Senior Member Bindi2's Avatar
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    I notice you have some Lithgowicon parts installed.

  9. #17
    Really Senior Member englishman_ca's Avatar
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    This is fascinating. I think that we can figure this one out. Humor us trying to find a practical hands on solution from a distant keyboard!
    No training, only absorbing what I can from others. But I have spent hours playing around with LE two stage triggers. My experience is all trial and error (lots of error), I have never failed to eventually get it working as per specs. All part of the hobby that seems to satisfy my OCD.

    It would have been useful to see pics of the relative position of components with the front trigger guard bushing fitted, but with the wood removed. This bushing when adjusted correctly to the fore end, will position the trigger guard in the exact same position with or without the fore end assembled. This is how you will test your progress, by assembling the guard with the bushing.
    When we finally get this thing adjusted, the trigger will work in the same way with the rifle fully assembled, or assembled without wood but with bushing in place.
    But your pics of the trigger guard positioned helps tell the story too.

    I can see that with no wood, the sear tip at cocked position is sitting nicely on the cocking piece bent face. So the sear position looks good.
    I cant see the sear being bent, the sear itself is a casting and is quite brittle, they just don't bend, even if you try (ask me how I know!).
    I compared a group of sears in my bins to each other and there was next to nothing in the variations dimensionally. Your sear is probably good.

    Yes, filing the trigger guard under the trigger stop in that red circle seems drastic, but if need be (shouldn't need), make sure that there is enough clearance to allow the trigger to move away from sear. When fitted and adjusted, it should have a rattling loose clearance. (Once the bumps are reduced, it might clear, do you have a used trigger with low bumps to try?).
    This might be the problem all along, trigger has to clear the sear!!!! My focus would be right here, getting the trigger bumps to clear and not influence the sear when sitting at cocked position. Something is definitely going on right here with the trigger touching and pushing the sear forward instead of a slight clearance.

    The variables that I see are the trigger guard with its positioning of the trigger relative to the sear (bent guard, stock's trig guard inlet and bushing), and the height of trigger bumps themselves. Everything else is determined and positioned by manufacturing tolerances, not a lot left to adjust.

    It would be useful to try a nice well used and worn trigger with low bumps first. I am thinking that if you are assembling a rifle from NOS parts, maybe the trigger will be NOS too, and it has very high bumps ready to be stoned down to suit.
    I think that I might be touching on, but skirting all around the problem

    I would start stoning the bumps on the trigger. You have a second trigger spare if (for me it would be when) you screw up, right? Have at her! It doesn't take long to figure out what happens when material is removed, but it is real easy to remove too much.


    And, as a last resort...(this will stir the pot and get some people going!)

    I note that in 1984 Canadian Armourers' instructions, to switch out trigger guards for fit. But there there is also mention that to get trigger adjustment, and if no replacements are available, to bend the trigger guard. Yes, I know, this does fly in the face of normal instructions, but No.4 rifles are still in service in Canadaicon, replacement parts are getting meagre or non existent. This is a Canadian work around.
    Bending the trigger guard has a huge effect. That is why it is important when setting up to have it straight so that we are starting at square one. Maybe experiment a bit by bending your spare trigger guard? Bubba knows this trick well.

    Whatever the problem is, it is not far off. Some adjustment needed.

  10. #18
    Really Senior Member Alan de Enfield's Avatar
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    I wonder if the use of this tool would assist
    How to make the tool (Page 3:2:29)
    How to use the tool (page 3:2:30)

    Sear Stop Adjustment.




    Which then goes onto say :

    NOTE
    In the past, slight distortion of the trigger
    guard, in the area at the rear of the
    magazine opening, may have been
    performed as an expedient means of
    adjusting trigger pull in the field. This
    condition may have to be corrected prior to
    adjusting the trigger pull.
    Attached Files
    Mine are not the best, but they are not too bad. I can think of lots of Enfields I'd rather have but instead of constantly striving for more, sometimes it's good to be satisfied with what one has...

  11. #19
    Really Senior Member englishman_ca's Avatar
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    That is a great reference there AdeE, thank you for posting. It is a much more up to date version than the one that I currently have.

    A simple substitute for the sear stop adjustment tool that seems to work for me is with the use of a center punch to displace metal to adjust the sear position. Some may cringe at me using a round punch, but all I am really doing is using a dot instead of a dash. ???

    In the case of the OP's rifle, we checked. The position of the sear tip seems to be sitting on the cocking piece bent face at full cock is just fine. No adjustment needed.

    Something simple is out of whack here. Just gotta find it.

  12. #20
    Member tsquared82's Avatar
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    I appreciate all the input and help here! Here are some more pictures to include the trigger guard screw bushing in place. You can see that the trigger is in full contact with the sear on the 1st stage and is almost touching the 2nd. The trigger, in this cocked position, is a cross-eyed glance away from firing. The 2nd stage nub has to only tickle the sear before it touches off. It seams that there would be a ton of filing and stoning (Proper tool and technique for that if it is the problem?) to be done.

    Granted, I still need to complete the full bedding of my rifle in the stock. There are areas where I will need to use cork or cardboard to shore up some areas. but in my brain... if the action won't work properly as it stands now, it does no good to try and continue fitting the action any further until resolved.

    I have tried to insert a well used trigger as well instead of the NOS... same issue.
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