.30 Carbine vs .357 Magnum

[Johannes54]

DaveHH,

I was wondering if someone would ask, and the fact that you did tells me that you are genuine.

I served in A Trp 3rd Squadron 5th Cavalry from 11/68 -11/69 in I Corps (Delta Trp "Light Horse/Charlie Horse" served out of Bearcat). We fought mostly in "free fire zones" on the DMZ and in the A Shau against (almost exclusively) NVA Regulars who were well fed, well trained, well equipped highly motivated and nearly as fatalistic and ****ed off as we were. As far as I know we were the only element of the 9th ID in I Corps, you can verify this in "Order of Battle" or you can visit our website at http://www.3-5-cav-blackknights.org/.

This is just one Trooper's opinion but the M16 issued to me was superbly accurate and 100% reliable however, I was never all that impressed after several daylight encounters I had with it under 100 meters left me kinda luke warm. I used it for dismounted sweeps, LPs and occasionaly for sharpshooting from the turret of my tank, but I preferred the grease gun (with my canvas map bag full of 30 rd stick magazines) for APs because of it's knock-down power (as you know, APs are close-in work). In my outfit and as an 11E, the M14 like you and I trained on would have been much better for me for the occasions where I spent a limited amount of time doing sweeps. Anyone who gets hit anwhere with a 7.62 Nato can do anything but stop what they were doing.

Like I said, I'm real happy with my .30 carbine and I probably would have been more that happy to have it some forty years ago as an M2, I think she would have been great to rock n roll with. But then, you know what opinions are like.............

[Bruce McAskill]

Many vets felt the M16 round was not all that good. BUT in reality it was better then even the .45 acp close in. The 55 gr. FMJ when it penetrated 2 inches of a human body would start to tumble and then it would come apart inside like a mini shotgun round. The damage inside was tremendous and it was what lead to NATO, with Belgium leading the way as the 55 gr bullet was too inhumane, going to a heavier bullet that would not tumble but go right through. That is what our troops are stuck with today.

[JimF4M1s (Deceased)]

The change in barrel twist had a big effect on that too. Used to be 1:14-inch rifling twist. I think now it is 1:7.

[INLAND44]

Yes, the 357 really comes alive out of a rifle. Many are used for deer hunting now days..
I do find it interesting though that if one assumes a two handed combat stance with a pistol ( say a 357 ) and compares the distance of the muzzle of the pistol to the muzzle distance of a shouldered m1 carbine, that the carbine muzzle is closer to the shooter than that of the pistol. To see the difference place the pistol muzzle ( unloaded ) against a post.. set the pistol down and shoulder the carbine..

What is the point of this? Muzzle blast comparison? If so, the carbine obviously would have less sound and visible fire because of the 16" barrel, while the longer barrel also allows the .357 to achieve higher velocity.

[USGI]

That should be an 18" barrel on the carbine. I just sold a Rossi SRS Carbine in .38spc/357mag (copy of a '92 Winchester) with a 16" barrel. It was quite a bit more accurate than my best carbine at 25 yds, at least shooting .38spc's in it. - Bob

[DaveHH]

I mostly ran convoys for entertainment but frequently had to go North to Pleiku, which was what? 10-20 klicks from the belly of the beast? We had dets in most of the SF camps, Plei Me, Plei Djering as well as the 101st, 1st Cav, 25th (at that time at Pleiku, replaced by the 4th). I was gone by Tet, but afterward, a lot of assets went North into I Corps. We were at Bong Son at LZ English? Closing the back door to Hue was a primary mission after Tet. Glad I was gone and out of the Army by then. The photo was taken on Hwy 1 between Cam Rahn and Nha Trang near the Michelin rubber forest. Beyond the mountains was the South China Sea. It was a prime House Cat area, not much happening. I carried an M14, which I loved dearly. The only Units with 16s were mobile infantry battalions, they were scarce in 66.

[Johannes54]

DaveHH

You are right, you were lucky to DEROS before Tet, and I was pretty lucky to have arrived nearly a year afterwards. My unit fought in Hue during Tet, any of the photos you may have seen of tanks or ACAVs in that city during Tet were all of the 3/5 Cav. When I arrived in Nov. 68 and passed through Hue, they were just digging up the mass graves of those civilians who had been targeted and murdered by the NVA during that offensive. Funny thing how even General Giap later said that that offensive was a profound defeat for North Vietnam but our American journalists told us all that it was a loss for us. Of course we who served knew that we really had won every major battle, but our journalists didn't like the war and went to work on destroying any morale there might have been on the "home front." I have never trusted the press since and I don't trust them now.

Let me take a wild guess........I'll bet you don't either.

[Johannes54]

Full metal jacket bullets didn't (and don't) come apart "like a mini shotgun round" two inches inside human flesh or twelve inches inside human flesh, I don't know where you got your information but you are flat out wrong. The 55 gr fmj bullets did tumble however, so did the 7.62 fmj slugs the enemy used.

[imarangemaster]

Actually, US M193 55 grain FMJs DO break up at velocities in excess of 2550-2600 FPS. It starts when they yaw, then break up at the channular. At velocities above 2900 to 3000 fps, they fragment like a grenade. Ammo Oracle has pics of fragmented M193 recoverd at different velocities.

110 grain USGI ball carbine ammo, does not break up, but tumbles some when it hits. One of my links shows slow motion of it exiting the gel sideways.

[ABPOS]

I have also seen data that shows they do break up, like imarangemaster has stated. http://razoreye.net/mirror/ammo-oracle/ But this of course is in ballastic gelatin. I do think they have noted real world accounts of it also. But it's been a long while since I've read it.

But I did want to say, you guys having this conversation about Vietnam... I've read a few books about these places, like Pleiku. And I want to thank you for your service. I'm glad you guys made it back and have some of your minds left. I don't say that lightly.