M1 Carbine accuracy

[DaveHH]

The Vietnamese started out as so-so soldiers, against the French after Giap ran a few thousand through the mill at Dien Bien Phu they learned fast and died quietly. By the time we got around to our war with them, they were good, really good. The Viets were fighting the Chinese for centuries, they took over Cambodia for a while too. The Chinese are treated like 2nd class citizens by the Viets and by most people in the area. After we left, the Chinese would fake some border insult and then run their army in there to basically see how it would do, logistics, medical combat etc, They got their butts kicked every time. It was a sad showing and points out that the kid off the farm makes a way better soldier than the student. In my opinion, the Chinese army is very poor, nowhere near what people think they are. Check out the photos of the Indian Sikhs and their boys when they have some border incident with the Chinese Army. These large bearded smiling guys with giant knives and the Chinese Officers look like they are going to cry.

[lemaymiami]

A bit of additional history on the Viets.. (I did a year in language school before heading to my "senior trip"... guess what language...). Along with constant conflicts (mostly with the Chinese) for hundreds of years... there were elements in-country that fought the French off and on during the entire colonial period. That was actually when a French priest was the first to reduce Vietnamese to a written language - that's why to this day their language is written in the roman alphabet...

At any rate, whoever occupied that area (called Indochina for decades before "VietNam" came along) quickly learned that they'd never be free of very bad things happening until they left that part of the world. Along comes WW II and the Japanese conquer the entire region and found the Viet Minh to be a real problem (and of course we were supplying them...). Along with our supplies the Allies promised them their freedom. Of course after we won the war the French reneged on that promise and took over again... The guerrilla war started up all over again until the French were badly beaten in 1954 at Dienben Phu. As a last trick the French then established two countries instead of allowing them to have one country - and that was the seeds of what we stepped into all those years ago...

My Dad did two tours there -1965 in civvies, stationed in Saigon - then again in 1969 at Camh Ranh Bay... He said the only way to get out of that mess was to declare a victory - then run like hell for the airplanes -but make sure you had covering fire all the way to the planes since we'd be needing it...

[DaveHH]

Book: "Strange Ground: an Oral history of Americans in Vietnam" by Harry Maurer. The best book on the history of Vietnam I've ever read. It is a story that vets should read.

[mrclark303]

When I went to Vietnam first in the early 1990's, I flew into Tan Son Nhat (the airport was still bullet pock marked then and you taxied past derelict C130's etc on your way to the old terminal.

My first brush with Vietnamese semi officialdom was wondering around the periphery of Ton Son Nhat to the gates of the small museum that was on the air force side of the airfield.

No problems getting in for free, but it was different on leaving, I had a cocked Type 56 pointed at me and asked to 'donate' towards the museum, a $10 donation was made and everyone was happy...

Bureaucracy was stifling, everyone was considered a 'threat' to national security and generally followed around.

That said, the people in general, were nothing but friendly, very pro western in general and pro American.

My small group managed to get down into the delta, it was mainly off limits at the time due to cross border raids by the Kahmer Rouge...

I had a chat with some of the first US military personnel back in Vietnam in a Hanoi bar, they were mustering for their first MIA recovery missions, along with their Vietnamese colleagues.

We treked slowly north up country, mainly via Highway 1 and finally, over the border into China at Lang Son.

The Lang Son border was 'very' heavily armed, bristling with ZSU cannons, SAMs of every description, artillery and well dug in troops and tanks.

You had to walk through them, walking a half mile long dirt track while being watched by both sides, you got the impression a missplaced fart would have started a shooting war!

It's not surprising, the Chinese pushed through Lang Son in 79 heading towards Hanoi in massive numbers ... And had their *** handed to them by the Vietnamese.

I remember talking to a few Chinese veterans of the 79 campaign, they said it was absolutely horrendous and the Vietnamese fought like Tigers.

Today things have changed hugely, Vietnam is an up and coming country, very pro western and part of an international alliance keeping the Chinese in check.

[lemaymiami]

No better friend - no worse enemy... Where did I hear that said?

One other minor point my Dad made a point of - all those years ago... "Kid, we're killing ten of them for every one of ours.... At that rate we'll quit first"

That's exactly how it went down... Not an accident that Vietnamese refugees coming to the states with no English at all would have kids that became valedictorians at their high schools years later...

[floydthecat]

Not an accident that Vietnamese refugees coming to the states with no English at all would have kids that became valedictorians at their high schools years later...

And all we do is make sure they get fed, even when school is out. Conditioning them to expect to be fed, clothed and housed by the government for the rest of their lives.

[USGI]

You're wrong on that one Floyd. They're one of the hardest working immigrant classes that I've ever seen. - Bob

[floydthecat]

You're wrong on that one Floyd. They're one of the hardest working immigrant classes that I've ever seen. - Bob

I meant most of our public schools in general. Not any one particular ethnic group.

[USGI]

Sorry, I sounded a little bit harsh. I totally agree with you about the "conditioning" thing. It's the same here, they even hand out meals for the weekends, too. Their parents drive up in late model SUV's to pick up the meals - don't even need to take the kids along with them. Just tell how many kids they have, and pick up that many meals. - Bob

[mrclark303]

The southern Vietnamese struggled under the yoke of communism and when the Vietnamese government reasised
(very sensibility) that they couldn't rely forever on Russia and needed to pivot towards the West, they allowed private enterprise again.

The natural business acumen of the Vietnamese came to the surface and they haven't looked back, economically they are going from strength to strength.

Same sort of (people/government) deal as China, make a fortune, buy a big house and a fleet of Mercedes, knock yourself out .... But don't get involved in politics, leave that to the Politburo in Hanoi....