WW1 'Periscope Prism company' sniper scope???

[Madzi]

Really fascinating thread on the MKVI markings - I recently got hold of a PPC with MKVI on the range drum - first reply so hope I can work out how to upload photos - and was chatting to Roger on email a week or so back. Not sure if this might be useful to the discussion - My one has the standard 1915 patent rings and rifle number of R4878 (assume that was standard SMLE serial format - would the CLLE have the same numbering format?). Not to say of course that the rings might not have been put on later - there does appear to have been some slippage from original marks on the tube although what I assume is an armourer's orientation nick is still aligned. Assume if there was a batch specifically made for the CLLE's, would this have been separate to the specification SA 390/- 4/05/1915? (That does specify SMLE MkIII). However, Ian Skennerton does mention in the Lee Enfield Story that a number of CLLE's were fitted with optical sights for TF units - assumed Latteys etc, so possible that some may have been scoped? Would have been a bit of a logistics tangle having to supply MkVI rounds if the rest of the unit was standardized on rifles optimised for MkVII ball.

[Roger Payne]

Welcome to the forum! If you can figure out how to upload one or two pictures it would be fascinating to see your scope.

I have seen a long rifle with a French APX scope mounted onto it, so anything's possible! No doubt not official, but probably set up at or shortly after the time....

[Madzi]

Ah - I was using chrome - attachments uploads seem to work properly in IE - hope all the markings (MkVI/rifle serial etc) are visible in these attachments. Scope is a gem - optics and reticule in close to perfect condition and no internal debris. Had a thin coating of rust on the tube, but 95% paint on the brass.

[Roger Payne]

Yes, a very nice looking scope. The Mk VI engraving looks remarkably similar to that on the other scope. When I acquired mine many years ago, it came from an advanced collector in New Zealand. Sadly he passed on in 2002, but when I had the scope from him he informed me that it was sourced locally, & he suspected that the range grads may even have been changed for 'local' service as there was, relatively, still plenty of Mk6 ammunition available in NZ. I really couldn't say for sure - but this was his opinion. Regardless, you have quite a rarity!

[GeeRam]

If you try again I suspect you'll have more luck.....

Thanks, but I just have and I didn't, still full.
Never mind.

[Madzi]

Thanks Roger - Img15's earlier comment about MkVI ammo being used exclusively at Gallopoli etc and my head scratching about logsitics has hopefully given a Eureka moment on the MkVI markings.(And from a family POV - I certainly hope so!;-) Two of the units at Gallopoli were Scottish Horse and Lovats Scouts. They were withdrawn to Egypt, and certainly the Scottish Horse was in a support role at Ramadi against the Turks. Both units were then sent to Salonika. From a logistics point of view, it would make sense that considerable old stock of MkVI ammunition would be sent exclusively to a specific theatre - MkVII obviously sent to the Western Front). High likelihood then (based on the Gallipoli information) that the MKVI ammo ended up in the Middle East?

Sniper training for Scottish Horse started in Egypt (see the attached diary entry where my Grandfather, Bill Scott, is given the post of sniper officer by Tullibardine, later Duke of Atholl). This would have focused initially on stalking etc with iron sights, based very much on Bill's ABW experience - he had been Scout Sergeant for SH in South Africa, and had missed Gallipoli as he was on OCTU in Aldershot. The journal of one of his scout-snipers (James Anderson - "So Once more it was Bundle and Go!" - published by his late daughter Ann Walker) indicates that "telescopic rifles, night sights and telescopes" were only received once they had arrived in Salonika. Given that there are a number of well-known pictures of snipers in Salonika with PPC's, it makes sense that the MkVI- marked range drums were destined for Salonika or similar theatres flagged for the stocks of MkVI ammunition? (Grandfather ended up running 27th Div SOS with Major Grant of the Lovats, before both units were sent back to France, so really hoping I might have inadvertently got a scope that could have crossed paths with him! ;-) Lack of internal debris from damp and rust certainly does indicate that this is an "Away from the Western Front" scope. Thoughts? (Covid permitting, hoping to get out to the Sturma Valley in the next year on one of Alan Wakefield's tours, so will need to see if there is any indication of MkVI use there). I have sourced some 215-grain bullets (originally for my metford, so was looking to do MkIV loads) but will need to see if I can work some loads to emulate the MkVI.

I read Ian Skennertons "Enfield Story" in a bit more detail, and it does appear that the CCLE's with the optic sights were specifically sighted for MKVII ammuntion, so that probably closes down my previous thought on that.

[Roger Payne]

Oh, sorry GeeRam. He phoned me yesterday or the day before & mentioned that his in box was full, but I think he thinks he's cleared it. I'll give him a dig in the ribs for you if you like....?

And thanks Madzi, I've just twigged who you are! Is James Anderson's book available? I don't think I am familiar with it, but would be most interested to track down a copy....

What you say all makes sense, thinking about it. I had not really given this issue a lot of thought, but I think surpmil is correct in that they were 'officially' modified (or graduated for Mk6 ball from the outset, even), & it would make sense to limit them to a specific theatre, other than the main theatre of operations, as you say. I would agree that Mk7 ball is ubiquitous on the Western Front. I have found or seen literally many thousands of rounds of 303 SAA that still turns up in F&F today, & only once have I ever seen any ball ammunition other than Mk7. This was just last year at a 'brocante' (street market) in a local village on the Somme, where a chap with various military relics for sale had about thirty rounds of ground dug Mk6 ball.......still live! I asked him if he knew from where they had come, but unfortunately he couldn't enlighten me, though they would almost certainly have been unearthed somewhere local. But not at all a common find.

[lmg15]

Madzi, interesting point about Salonika and consistent with my expectations at least, but may need some battlefield archaeology to confirm one way or the other. I wondered whether the broader campaign in Palestine from 1916 used Mk,VII ball to standardise with the Western Front? I am thinking that if no official records on that are available, then are there any examples of 303 trench art that may give a clue? Most I have seen are the scimitar style letter openers, but use Turkish 7.65mm cases.

BTW, my Great Uncle Harold Connor also served with the 2nd Battalion Scottish Horse in ABW, as did many Colonial Australians who missed out on the other Australian raised regiments. He joined just after he returned from the Boxer Rebellion with the NSW Naval Brigade.

RE the PPCo scopes, one thing I neglected to mention about the info I am collecting is that there is usually (but not always) a rifle number on the front edge of the dovetail mount that does not match the number on the front ring. Still thinking about this...is that a number for its new rifle, and if so, why not strike a line through the old serial number as seen on some Aldis scopes? ATB, D.

[Surpmil]

Very interesting comments gentlemen. As far as serial number lists go, I started an Aldis one back around 2008(?), ValleySniper took over the job and I have a version from him dated 2010. I'm afraid neither of us have kept it up consistently since then, and clearly a PPCo. list is needed as well which can be shared between those of us who are interested. Of course mount types, re-numbers and any other details that might be relevant are logged as well.

Knowing what we do about the fumbling and low level of interest in sniping and equipment, I have trouble believing that the War Office was so well-organized as to have rifles marked up for MkVI .303 made and sent specifically to theatres where more of it was used. Was not a great deal of it was also used in France in 1915/16 by those New Army battalions that used the earlier rifles?

As far as finding out where an artifact such as a scope has been, use the method popularized by Max Frei: pollen There will be plenty of it in the nooks and crannies of scope cases, not to mention scopes that have not been cleaned much over the years.

In fact, with the popularity and increasing cheapness of DNA testing these days, it won't be long before DNA samples obtained from artifacts can be easily tested and correlated to existing databases, perhaps making it quite easy with the help of military records to say whose DNA was left behind. I've been keeping samples from artifacts I've cleaned over the years in anticipation of that service becoming cheaply and easily available, but provenance does not interest everyone, though it certainly adds to value which should appeal to most.

[Madzi]

Hi Roger - yes - still copies available on Amazon -
So Once More It Was Bundle and Go: Memories of the Great War: Amazon.co.uk: Anderson, James Scott: 9781786233677: Books

James' daughter Anne published it a couple of years back (She very sadly passed away at the beginning of this year) - proceeds go to the SSAFA Armed Forces Charity. Very interesting in that it is very much a squaddie's eye view of what was happening and really interesting to put his experiences in context against my grandfather's diary and the unit war diary at National Archives. Think I may have sent you a copy of the article compiling those that I wrote as a follow-up when we were sorting the Whitehead Bros mounts last year? (Interestingly, James's journal and my article were used as a module for a battlefield study of the Homondos assault that Alan Wakefield did for British Army recce units last year).

I'm likeing Milsurps suggestion around the DNA - definitely need to keep the inside of my scope sealed or take a swab.

Img15 - thanks - I had never spotted the numbers on the ring. I have a matching number on the eyepiece side to the main number (both R4878). On the objective side, just a single didget "5".

Annoyingly for me, I found this photo @ww1macedonianfront Instagram post (carousel) #ww1 #ww1history #wwone #worldwarone #worldwar1 #relics #bullets #macedonia #bulgarian #french #ww1relics #wartoendallwars #german #english #british #1915 #1916 #1917 #19141918 #history #macedonianfront #salonika #dig #fallen #soldier #ww1finds - Gramho.com of spent rounds in Salonika - does appear to be MkVII's (the roundnose is likely an 8mm from a Bulgar M95) so that would remove the possibility of a family connection with my scope - but still like to think Palestine and support of the Arab revolt could still be in the picture for the MkVI scopes, assuming, of course, as Milsurps pointed out, effective logistics, and as you rightly pointed out, they would ultimately have standardized on MkVII, so it would likely have just been for a limited period while there were sufficient stocks of MkVI.

Very interesting on your great uncle - my grandfather was also 2nd Battalion SH in the ABW - K Squadron (joined from an Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders VSC). I'm currently in the very slow process of writing up his very detailed diary - younger, so far more detail than his WW1 diaries. I will need to get you over a draft when ready.