Security guys (in grey) inside Newark Airport

[Redhand]

Well for a minute there I thought the SOUTH had risen again and that we had some Federates ( as my 8 yr. old grandson affectionatly refers to them) in uniform. And some sound advice to those who want to generalize all P.O.'s as gestapo, you had better hope that it's not a Federate. I've been called a gestapo and it hurt for awhile until I read between the lines about the character who was doing the character assassination. What a worthless piece of anarchist, lilly livid liberal he appears to be. If he were lying on the ground on fire and I come upon him again I will pee beside him while I call 911.

[2571]

city cop.

I hold with Jim K. These guys had attitudes that made me think they were high-salary rentacops who had never been at a homicide scene or a vice raid.

That counter-productive attitude didn't exist much when I was a LEO.

[ntd34]

Not a good time to be bad mouthin the men in blue.Not long out of the Corps I waded thru the Newark NJ riots of 1967 as a LEO and the experience of being spat upon while doing the job to help and protect was very disheartening..

[JB White]

In reply to many, I don't over react in the face of a police officer. I known too many of them and coached their kids in baseball for many years. The fathers who will step up as assistants are more often than not LEO's. All part of the personality it takes to step forward. (Just an observation on my part)
Many of my neighbors are policemen because they have to live within the city limits as a prerequisite of their jobs. We get along just fine as neighbors. There are some who we think have no business on the streets.

The younger generation of LEO's have a tendancy to 'puff out their chests' as noted. They also like to make every traffic stop a scene as they leap from the Blue and White in black tac gear with guns drawn low. I've seen them handle emotional traffic accident scenes as though they were SS, yelling, shoving and threatening. Controling a situation I can understand, but escalating one is wrong.

There is the time I walked into a suburban gun shop and was confronted by a young Chicago patrolman at the door wanting to know what I was doing there. I was a customer same as he was but he felt I had no place there since I wasn't a LEO.

A new sign went up near my house regarding no left turns for 2 hours during the day. I trusted the clock on my dashboard and made my turn 1 minute after the bracket time had started. Our beat car was watching and flashed his lights. I pulled over immediately and turned on the interior lights so he could see inside the vehicle. I was with my wife and kids. I didn't appreciate two buzz cut cops in black with guns drawn telling us to keep our hands up and for me to pass my DL backwards out the window.
I had a pistol pointed at my head for a 'no left turn' and there was no good reason for his partner to aim a maglight into my daughters eyes at gunpoint. Was I beligerent? No! I like to think I'm intelligent enough to know when not to escalate a situation. Besides, I wasn't given time to be beligerent. We remained "guarded" by his partner as the "nice policeman" wrote the ticket.

My 19 year old son is constantly being stopped for an ID check. Not a problem there as the police are monitoring gang activity. Do they have to rip his wallet apart, fling everything loosely back in his general direction and tell him to 'get on your F*****G way'?

I can write on and on about things such as this which have transpired over the past 15-20 years. Comments regarding there are always some I learned to understand over 50 years ago. However the bad outnumber the good here. This isn't only a personal gripe on my part. My neighbors feel the same way and have been treated the same way. The retired LEO's on my block moved away ASAP because they couldn't stand the majority of the new breed either.

Sorry guys, but Rambo Cop has done nothing to create a positive image in the public eye. I've heard all the stories about why and maybe etc as others try to justify the behavior at the local beat meetings. I have respect for the law, but the CPD in general has done their very best to cause myself and others to disrespect them.
We don't feel protected. We feel oppressed. If it weren't for my wife having such deep roots here, I would have moved away years ago.

[JB White]

"Comments regarding there are always some I learned to understand over 50 years ago."
Should read as "there are always some...",

[Dan Wilson]

Well as for me, I am a little more than a range warrior.
I had 24 years in the military, and seen hostile environments in The first gulf war, the Balkans, Afghanistan so I am pretty sure of being able to take care of me and mine.

I wont argue the swat goosestep squad stuff, all that does is get everybody ****ed off, you have your opinion and I have mine and I'm happy to leave it at that.

Thanks for the reply.

Dan

[Bob Womack]

Not having been there, I have no idea as to the attitudes involved. I respect the LEOs around me merely because it is the thing to do and it typically works, in a purely pragmatic sense. Remember, in order to maintain order itself, we respect the uniform, not the man. My biggest problem is restraining myself from curiously going over and asking the LEO about his mean-looking black weapon.

However, I do have some reticence on a principled level: I would be all for the "camo'd and armed to the teeth in public" thing for LEOs as long as there was reciprocity, allowing the citizens to do the same. Israel has tried it and found it to work marvelously. I'm reminded of a shoot-out attempted by a couple of terroristas in Israel back in the '80s. They entered a large public square, did a quick eyeball recon, and opened up with a couple of full-auto weapons. About twenty bullets later (mostly incoming), one terrorista was dead and the other was seriously injured and no citizens had been killed. They questioned the surviving terrorista in the hospital later, asking, "What were you thinking?" His response was, "How was I to know that the average citizen around here was armed to the teeth."

John Lott's research in More Guns Less Crime indicated that your best chance for being accidentally shot was from a LEO. Self-defense reciprocity is a heck of a better solution to our problem than creating self-defense free zones.

Come to think of it, it would probably take care of any attitude problem with young, hot-headed LEOs as well. What was it that Robert Heinlein said? "An armed society is a polite society."

Bob

[Marty C]

There are three things that keep jumping out during this topic. FIRST there are those who respect Law Enforcement and understand the job that they are doing even though they wish the attitude would "tone down" some, they understand that the Police have a job to do and overall they do it very well. I would guess that these people come from a very solid family background and their parents impressed upon them the need to respect those in authority ( I did not vote for Obama, but I respect his position as President, my President ).SECOND there are those who disagree with their local Law Enforcement and want to change things and feel they could do a better job. Well, if your young enough go ahead and apply. If your smart enough and have the required college, military background ( my former agency accepted both as equal )and can pass the entrance test you too can be part of the Law Enforcement Community. Then you will have the opportunity to do a better job and change things. If your too old or cannot pass the test then you still can change things by attending town meetings and speaking out agains what you feel is the "gestapo" attitude. Having spend over 21 years as a Police Union President I can tell you that the public opinion speaks loudly, especially to a Police Chief, Sheriff or Elected Official. Now the THIRD thing I have observed in several of these posts is an attitude that borders on hatred of Law Enforcement and Authority in general. I would suspect a very dismal family background and a negative experience with the Police ( you were quilty ) while growing up. These are the same people who point to our founding fathers as free and not willing to accept authority. That could not be further from the truth. Without law there is a total breakdown in society. Without the Police that you seem to despise it would be left up to those with the most firepower to rule over you. Now I know some of you will say "bring it on, I have my guns and I am a good shot I can take care of me and mine". That is a fools bravado. Sure you could defend your home (maybe) against an attacker or two but the odds are against you if there are no Police to respond to your aid and your facing multiple armed attackers. While I respect your service time in a war zone ( been there ) you above anyone else should appreciate the fact that the cavalry is on the way and help is coming. To your point abour Israel. The major difference is simply this, Israel arms civilians and TRAINS them. In a situation such as armed terrorist they are a help not a hinderence. In our Country there would be massive lawsuits if a stray bullet fired by a trained, armed, assisting civilian were to strike an innocent person. Having said that I do fully support the carrying of weapons by civilians. I carry all the time, anywhere in the country and my life is no more valuable than yours. I would only ask that you be as well trained or meet a minimum standard before you carry a weapon. A tool in the hand of an untrained person could do more harm than good.

[PhillipM]

Marty statements like this are what gets people irritated:

"Instead of being so frustrated and perhaps feeling a little inferior..."

You come off as if you are bullying. Maybe Jim isn't frustrated nor inferior. Perhaps like most that have replied here, he is unimpressed by bravado acquired from parachute pants and combat boots. No one doubts that LEO's in general are to be respected and admired for taking a high risk job for low pay and I appreciate their civil service. However many I personally know do not fit the puffed up image you describe. Trying to elevate police to some "here comes the cavalry", or "white knights" on a mission to stamp out injustice wherever it is not the way my local police department works.

These are the statements I have a hard time swallowing based on my life experiences.

(1) "the first ones to run towards the sounds of danger as most everyone else is either screaming or running away for their lives." - Most will wait till the shooting stops and try to catch them days later coming out of their girlfriends house, witness Virginia Tech.

(2) "shoulder weapons and go into harms way so that you can feel safer in an airport or train station" I'd feel safer with my 1911 on my person.

(3) "i would simply reply that the black tactical gear is great, works well and is free," and it is the worst PR disaster LEO has ever done. You don't look like a hero cop, you look like a thug. The masks some wear are over the top.

(4) "Now to the point. Most if not all Special Police Units are far better trained than the "range warrior" who has no idea of what an actual gunfight is all about and has only faced paper or plastic targets." How many of these special police have ever actually been in a gunfight, facing more than paper or plastic targets?

(5) "Law Enforcement is the beauty is that they, the Police, stand ready and willing to come to your aid when you realize your overmatched and the "paper" is shooting back." Again, most I know and know of would wait till the shooting stops.

I do not have a record and I have never been intimidated or hassled by LEO. My local police force is a joke, my rose colored glasses broke years ago after incidents like these:

Seeing an patrol officer in a nightclub not only off his beat, out of his precinct. When questioned he said he could get back real quick if anyone called and in the mean time he was checking out the young girls.

Multiple businesses broken into on a street. Police pass out a little business card with a case number to report it to the insurance company. No investigation.

Patrol officer posted a pic of himself smoking a joint on the hood of his police car. He got fired

Patrol officer went to the next city and pawned his service pistol. He got fired

Asking one, why didn't you bust him for that marijuana instead of just taking his dope? He replied it was too much paperwork and threw the golf ball sized bag on the roof of the building we were standing by.

Watched a Sergeant throw out a cigarette butt during the morning rush two days ago. Way to set an example.

Watching a brawl at the pool hall standing by another sergeant. Hey Bill, are you going to do anything? Nope, I'm off duty and it's not my fight. They made him a Lieutenant!

The fourth police chief in two years resigned yesterday.

Joke on the streets: "There are two LEO's in a patrol car. How do you tell the difference between a deputy sheriff and the police officer?... The police officer is in the back seat."

Specially trained officer showing me the new tactical knife and informing me my Buck 110 folding hunter was inferior because it couldn't be opened with one hand. I enjoyed giving him a one handed demo!

I could go on and on.

I have been to a monthly practice session with some serious operators and as you aptly put, there is a lot to be said for effective training. I was very impressed. I agree with most of what you say, I think you are just a little over zealous patting yourself on the back. I hope if the SHTF your brethren will come to my aid, however I ain't depending on it! Thanks for your service and dedication to your duty. Proverbs 29:23

[RED]

So I guess I will take the leap. Marty is a good example of the LEO that is full of themselves. Just his statement that those black uniforms are free shows you just how little he understands what is happening. Marty... Those duds AIN'T FREE!. Myself and every other law abiding tax paying citizens worked and paid dearly for those "free" clothes.

Personally I cannot even imagine ANY situation where I would call a LEO for any reason much less help. No cop has ever done anything except harass, bully, and do everything in his power to intimidate and humiliate me. I could recite time after time where this has happened starting back in 1956. The latest incident happened just a couple of years ago. I had an accident where I slipped, fell, and broke my back while deer hunting on my own property. There I am with the EMT's trying to start an IV when the game warden showed up and interrupted the process asking to see my deer tag! I could go on for hours... Flame away, I don't give a damn.

I am sure there are some really fine folks that go into law enforcement. Unfortunately after a few years they undergo a frontal lobotomy administered anally.