Hello, again! Rifle mag 8x57 hot loads

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with Parashooter, needlessly alarmed. I've been loading the 8x57 in M98s to such levels for years. I also pressure test with an Oehler M43. The loads listed are quite within CIP standards (Eurpean equivelent of SAAMI) for the 8x57 (57,000 psi). My tests indicat that almost all milsurp ammunition pushes that envelope and some exceeds it, especially the German and Turk. My test also show that most all standard US ammo is loaded to extremely low levels.

I currently use 49.5 gr of 4895 (100% loading density) under a Hornady 150 gr in WW cases with WLR primers. Out of my test rifle (a Yugo M24/47 in excellent condition) that load runs 2802 fps with 49,300 psi(M43). Using 51 gr of H4895 under the same bullet (an older Lyman max load) produces 2895 fps at 53,700 psi(M43).

Remington and WW ammo run 37-40,000 psi(M43). German and Turk milsurp run 52,800-61,800 psi(M43). Several of the "hot" loads listed in that article are actually in the low 50,000 psi by my tests. I have not tested the 748 load but based on my previous experience with it in similar capacity cases I would not expect pressures to be excessive.

Larry Gibson

[Calif-Steve]

I thought the German WWI load was a 150 gr. bullet at around 2800fps. Mind you World War ONE. So we are now discovering magnum loads for the 8mm? The only problem with many Mauser is they tend to have poor bores. They just won't shoot well. The influx of new Yugo mausers has changed that problem.

[jon_norstog]

Well, this has all been pretty interesting. But enough about light bullets. The 8mm's advantage is in throw weight. Before I switched to my Krag for elk hunting I was using 47gr 4895 behind a Hornady 225 gr.Spire Point. That bullet is no more and lately I have been using 48gr 4895 behind a Nosler 200 gr.bullet.

These are good stiff loads but the primers look OK ... I don't really have instrumentation. My brother does, I might go up to Sandpoint with some rifles and ammo and see what I'm stirring up.

I've also got some pretty good Krag loads, I'll share everything when I get some chronograph results.

jn

[Larry Gibson]

Calif-Steve

I don't think we're talking "magnum" loads for the 8x57. What we're talking is loading to the original German specifications. The standard german load for the 154 gr bullet was 2880 fps. That was not a test barrel velocity but what was gotten out of the average K98. The velocities were higher in the longer barreled rifles. It really is not hard to duplicate such loads safely with 150 gr bullets and a good medium powder such as 4895.

Larry Gibson.

[Jim Tarleton]

Hey, thanks for all the replies. Parashooter got it right. I was needlessly alarmed. This is what I got from Rifle magazine:

Dear Mr. Norstog,

The newest Hornady manual lists a 150-grain Hornady using 56.2 grains of
Winchester 748 at 2,900 fps. This is a maximum load for a Hornady bullet.

The load in the Rifle 243 is a maximum load for the Sierra bullet. We do
recommend reducing all the loads in our magazine by 10% and then working up
to be extra safe.

Hodgdon owns Winchester powder but they do almost nothing to promote it.
When was the last time you saw a Winchester powder ad ever. They have
minimal load data for the Winchester powders. They are pushing their Hodgdon
and IMR brands especially on the web site.

Check out our LoadData.com site it has data from all the manuals. We have
loads of data Using Winchester powders in the 8x57. The nice thing about our
web site www.loaddata.com is that we have almost every bullet and powder
combination available.

Thanks,
Don
Wolfe Publishing Co

I do think two nice things about the 8x57 are: it goes through the press really easy, and it will digest surprisingly stiff loads of medium-to-fast burning powder. two other good things are, sporterized mausers are still really cheap, and it will knock down a moose with 1 shot.

I like the .35 Whelan, too, it has a more sensible relationship of case volume to bore than the '06. My brother switches off between his Whelan and his 8x57 when we go elk hunting. I stuck with the 8 until last year when I switched to a 30-40. That's another story. This year we may move into open country - 7mm mag, here I come.

jn

If you are going to be making very long shots where the bullet impacts at subsonic velocities (<1100 fps), switch to a boat tail bullet. The boat tail will flatten your trajectory at very long ranges significantly. You might find the 8x57 is still a credible round at long ranges with the right bullet.

Long, heavy, boat tail bullets rule at long range.

Jim

[MR 8x57js]

This is my take on it ,if the old German load was rated at 2880 Fps with a 154 Gr bullet and the .308 Winchester Factory loads are rated at 2880 Fps iam going to split the difference and get my loads running around 2850 Fps. This will do three things (1) i have a load that excees the .308 factory loads. (2) I can keep my pressures down, and (3) a can of powder will last me longer!

[smellie]

TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 (I have a copy before me as I write this) gives the following regarding the German 7.92x57 cartridge:

The Rifle is the Model of 1898 and it has a barrel length of 29.05 inches.

The older-model ammunition used a 227-grain steel-jacketed bullet of .3189" diameter. This bullet left the barrel at 2093 ft/sec, propelled by its 40.75-grain charge of FLAKE nitrocellulose powder at a pressure of 21 Imperial Long Tons pressure: 47.040 psi.

The newer-model ammunition used a 154-grain steel-jacketed pointed bullet of .323" diameter. It left the barrel at 2882 ft/sec, propelled by its 48.4-grain charge of FLAKE nitrocellulose powder at a pressure of 17.5 Imperial Long Tons: 39,200 psi.

Five points from this:
1. the weak, anemic old German cartridge which the Americans load to slightly-over-.30-30 levels is no slouch at all.

2. the pressure levels at which this performance lead one to surmise that if indeed we have made a few small advances in powder technology since 1909, we MIGHT be able to duplicate this performance without too terribly much danger to life and limb. After all, how many billions of these things did Fritz make? More than I will ever be able to shoot, that's for sure.

3. the wonderful, powerful .30-'06 was not the most powerful battlefield cartridge used in the Great War. That honour belongs to the German 7.92x57.

4. that .323" bullet is a very real advantage, allowing the shorter casing to develop its maximum PRACTICAL power without a great deal of recoil.

5. we still have a few lessons to learn from the old-timers.

I won't go on and say anything about loading manuals. I have one here which gives 2650 as absolute max for the 150 in the 8x57..... but it boosts the .30-'06 to 3150 ft/sec with the same weight. That is SUPPOSED to be a safe load, whereas anything even vaguely approaching the World War One performance for the German cartridge is viewed with apprehension, shock and terror. The First World War is OVER, guys! Isn't it about time we started to tell the truth about SOMETHING?

[nitro-express]

As stated already, North American ammo and most of the re-load data is very mild. Just for a comparison, look at Norma data, 8x57 JS - Norma
They have a max load of 47.8 gr of N201 for a velocity of 2874 and a max load of 50 gr N202 for a velocity of 2933, with a 150Hornady. Ramshot and Vitavuori also list real data. I have been using 51.0 gr of BLC-2 with a 175 Sierra @ 3.00 OAL, no high pressure signs and accurate. Its below the max of 53.5 listed by Hodgdon. 748 and BLC-2 seem to work well in the 8x57 with bullets under 180 gr. The Germans had their own special powder for the 8x57JS, internet knowledge, and it's not available. It probably was like HiVel 2, good velocity but lots of throat errosion. One thing to note is that the military loading did not have a significant muzzle flash, was hard to determine where the shooting was coming from.

[Patrick Chadwick]

Some basic mechanics:

Max. force = max. pressure x area (CIP figures)
8x57IS------3900 bar x 51.78mm2 = 201942
.30-06----- 4050 bar x 47.55mm2 = 192577
.308 WIn---4150bar x 47.51mm2 = 197166
(No, I don't know why the .308 and .30-06 have different cross-sections in the tables!)

Acceleration = Force/mass.
Final velocity is the integral of the acceleration/time curve.
So, "all other things being equal" - which they never are - i.e. for identical weight bullets in identical length barrels with identical powders producing identical pressure/time curves in those barrels, the 8x57IS could produce a slightly higher muzzle velocity and energy, simply because of the higher bore cross-section, which outweighs the lower Pmax. In practice, there's very little in it, thus providing the ground for endless discussion!


Patrick

[paulh358]

Concur with Parashooter, needlessly alarmed. I've been loading the 8x57 in M98s to such levels for years. I also pressure test with an Oehler M43. The loads listed are quite within CIP standards (Eurpean equivelent of SAAMI) for the 8x57 (57,000 psi). My tests indicat that almost all milsurp ammunition pushes that envelope and some exceeds it, especially the German and Turk. My test also show that most all standard US ammo is loaded to extremely low levels.

I currently use 49.5 gr of 4895 (100% loading density) under a Hornady 150 gr in WW cases with WLR primers. Out of my test rifle (a Yugo M24/47 in excellent condition) that load runs 2802 fps with 49,300 psi(M43). Using 51 gr of H4895 under the same bullet (an older Lyman max load) produces 2895 fps at 53,700 psi(M43).

Remington and WW ammo run 37-40,000 psi(M43). German and Turk milsurp run 52,800-61,800 psi(M43). Several of the "hot" loads listed in that article are actually in the low 50,000 psi by my tests. I have not tested the 748 load but based on my previous experience with it in similar capacity cases I would not expect pressures to be excessive.

Larry Gibson

My 150 grain Hornady loading is 48 grains of H4895. Kind of a WTF loading for some spare PMC cases. Avg Vel 2767 from a Rem 700 Classic 24" Barrel. I'll get a picture of accuracy when I get to the range. If there good (inch and under) I'll leave it alone. Dont have a need for the 150's. I like the 175 Sierras better for deer.

Currently working up loads for 200 Partition's with IMR4350 and Big Game.