5.7 Johnson and M1 Carbine

[eb in oregon]

I just found this forum yesterday when searching 5.7 Johnson (5.7 MMJ and .22 Spitfire) and found the thread below fascinating. However it was requested I not revive a thread years old. So here is a new one regarding the same subject.

First, the 5.7 MMJ was designed by Melvin Johnson for a 40 grain bullet, 50 grain maximum. The 30 Carbine case is just a bit small to get the full potential from a 55 grain bullet. It was loaded originally with 12.5 grains of 4227 powder, 40 grain soft nosed bullet (.22 Hornet), to about 2800 fps, with a 1/16 twist. This information comes from Ed Johnson, Melvin's youngest son, and who actually tried to bring that project to fruition after Melvin died. He can be found on "The Johnson Rifle Site" as the sites originator and owner. Ed has stated that they made right around 200 original Johnson Carbines and they actually sold at a loss in order to get the business going. I load the cartridge myself and use either 35 or 40 grain bullets with a charge of 12 grains of H110 for the two and it does pretty well for accuracy and it is a hot little cartridge that is hands over fist better than the FN 5.7x28 and if used in an M2 Carbine is an awesome package.

To build a 5.7 Johnson carbine you need a barrel (made by several different business's after Johnson's company folded due to lack of orders) and to re-profile the feed ramp for the cartridge. The feed ramp is the tricky part as I've never seen a drawing or a decent description of how that's done. Plainfield Machine made some later, as did Iver Johnson, IAI, and Fulton Armory. Unfortunately it never generated enough interest when those company's were making those carbines and that's a shame as it is a tremendous cartridge for the platform it was designed for. Of the carbines manufactured for the 5.7 Johnson obviously the original carbines are the best to have but they are getting as rare as fangs on a chicken. I've heard the Fulton Armory carbines were of good quality but have never seen one. The IAI and Iver Johnson had quality problems, which is the primary reason they weren't so successful. I've an original Johnson and an IAI carbine, the Johnson is of a higher quality though it used an aluminum cast trigger housing that Ed Johnson sourced from Plainfield Machine. It was due to the collapse of Johnson that Plainfield even started making M1 Carbines in the first place. A stock of unsold parts destined for others.

It has been claimed that the government bought some Plainfield carbines for use by security contractors, however I find that hard to believe as the federal government has huge stocks of M1 Carbines in storage and has been receiving them back for years from foreign country's that were given some later, it makes little sense to buy more from an upstart and new company. I don't know how some of those receivers ended up at the CMP but they were never in service with our military. Anyway, the 5.7 Johnson is a good cartridge and it's performance is greater than it's size and weight.

https://www.milsurps.com/newreply.ph...reply&p=266241

https://www.johnsonautomatics.com/

Information

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[browningautorifle]

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

[eb in oregon]

i think this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

I'd have to agree with you. It is weird though that in the last 20 to 30 years the firearms industry has created many new small caliber cartridges but the 5.7 Johnson hasn't seen a revival. I believe that if a company would make a new version (especially in stainless steel) it would see a resurgence. As long as people stayed within the parameters of the original design and factory ammunition was available. I would point out though that Ed Johnson has stated in the past one of the reasons the cartridge initially failed was that Johnson had a hard time trying to get anybody to make factory ammunition for it. Those that did didn't make much, so ammunition was a problem. And most people don't want to spent the time and effort to "roll" their own. One of my dreams for years has been an M2 Carbine in 5.7 MMJ. With decent magazines and not that imported rubbish.

Video: 5.7 mm Johnson Spitfire Carbine | American Rifleman | Official Journal Of The NRA

[browningautorifle]

With decent magazines

USGI... I'd just make my own anyway. Probably just gas check cast and as heavy as I could find for a mould.

[mrclark303]

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

I'm with you Jim, love to try one, it's a facinating calibre and it would make a potent, handy little Carbine, especially in am M1A1 stock.

[RCS]

Mr Johnson even tried to interest US Ordnance in his 5.7mm cartridge (40 gr bullet at 3000 fps) while they were working on the 22/7,62x51 testing,
but along came the 222 Rem Special & Winchester 224E2 which cancelled out everything else

[RCS]

I am certain that I posted this short story before: soon after the 5,7 and 22 Carbine Wildcat cartridges found their way into surplus M1 carbines a gunsmith offered a "kit" (not cheap) to convert your carbine in a 7,62x33 mm Kurz caliber using 308 Win cases shortened to fit the carbine magazine with a 110 gr bullet. This kit, as I remember, included a longer barrel with the gas port moved forward, the slide was modified and bolt face opened-up completely, This also included a long recoil spring. A friend asked me to help him complete this conversion on a cheap DCM carbine and I told him that I wanted no part of this project. my photo shows the 5,7mm carbine and 30 Kurz cartridges (my kurz cartridge photo was also used by Cartridges of the World some years ago)

The 7,92x33 still lives as I saw a conversion of the AR-15 to use this cartridge, custom 8mm barrel with kurz chamber plus gages (around $800 ?) and still without a working magazine !

[eb in oregon]

A friend asked me to help him complete this conversion on a cheap DCM carbine and I told him that I wanted no part of this project.

Sounds like an excellent decision to me. I wouldn't touch that project with a stick. I've never had the desire to do something "just because." And sticking a cartridge in an M1 carbine receiver with almost twice the case capacity "just because" seems a poor challenge to take up.

[floydthecat]

Sounds like an excellent decision to me. I wouldn't touch that project with a stick. I've never had the desire to do something "just because." And sticking a cartridge in an M1 carbine receiver with almost twice the case capacity "just because" seems a poor challenge to take up.

If one has some old parts lying around, a “just because” fun conversion is 7.62 x 25. You won’t gain any performance or accuracy from it, but you can form your own brass easily enough and shoot Spitzer profile projectiles, or standard .308 carbine projectiles.

[eb in oregon]

i thin k this one just got lost in the cracks of time. The cartridge wasn't a success at the time when they had just passed the .30 cal and were trying 7.62, and 5.56 was just looming too. All this and three wars in a short time, over a twenty year period and it was forgotten. I would like to try a carbine in that chamber but they are all but unobtanium here in Canada and a registered trial experiment isn't much fun here, not with our overseers.

It didn't get "lost," the main issue was (and still is) the lack of available commercial ammunition. Ed Johnson couldn't get any major ammunition manufacturer to produce ammunition. Ed tried to make it himself but couldn't produce it fast enough. He had quality problems with several smaller producers, and due to the lack of ammunition orders didn't come in fast enough to stay in business. The cartridge is a good one, but the ammunition problem hasn't gotten any better. Even if today a guy tried to re-introduce the carbine it suffers from the same issue, lack of ammunition. And rifles where one has to "roll his own" have a very small market.