Australian/New Zealand Use of M16 Rifle in Vietnam?

[Peter Laidler]

That was a late Enfield GPMG.

After all said and written here regarding the ARR15's and M-16's I accept that some of my time lines might be a bit off, but what I have got going for me is the irrefutable fact that I was there when it was all happening

[Flying10uk]

but what I have got going for me is the irrefutable fact that I was there when it was all happening

Did you ever get or claim the Queen's Vietnam medal, Peter? I know that it was intended for Australians and New Zealanders but if you were there, as part of that force, taking the same risks, I would have thought that you would be entitled to the same awards as everyone else who was there.

[Peter Laidler]

Good question with a political answer - that I don't know the ins and outs of. It was quite specifically stated to be issued to Aust and NZ Military Forces. But several years later, Aust did relent in several cases......., said to have been by default or in error. But it did set the precedence that opened the door - but only if you got to hear about it - which I did from my RAR/RAEME colleagues! But like another example of a medal issued by the Brunei/Borneo state, the UK Military would not approve of the WEARING of the medal, presumably for political reasons (that the UK Military might well have been there, they were not there operationally). Nope, I didn't understand it either.

Anyone interested might like to see a talk given at the National Army Museum a few years ago, titled 'A JUNGLE TOO FAR. Britain and Vietnam'. Try you tube. I was asked to comment by the writer at a pre-talk meeting. Lo and behold, also present was one of the Tank Regiment Sergeants who was looking into the doctrine of using the big heavy Centurions in the jungle. They had already learned in Malaya that the Cents were too heavy to cross the bridges unless they were reinforced

[Gil Boyd]

Absolutely right Peter, MOD Medal Office made some strange decisions on medals and the strict adherence to those that could be worn and in what order they were to be court mounted.

Sadly the Vietnam medal was one like others in the Middle East in which we were only advisors in the BATT role, and where 6-12 month tours were common place but nothing to show for it later in service to prove you were there, except several dead comrades "trying to make the world a safer place" for HMG!! Also no mention of that service in your RED BOOK either.............bloody politics!!!

[Flying10uk]

'A JUNGLE TOO FAR. Britain and Vietnam'

Very interesting!

[CINDERS]

Regarding PL's Centurion Tanks in that environment I have yet to read these Pic #1-2;
MBT's of all types (Except the HA-GO type WWII Japanese one) have always been a keen interest of mine, mainly the Tiger 1 & II in WWII but I digress.
Of the VN conflict I can only imagine the immense issues arising from operating a heavy MBT in such terrain but trust us antipodeans to have a crack at it with ground conditions.
In the wet season probably consigning the tanks to act as emplaced arty anyway I'll get to reading these things one day to better understand.

I feel genuine angst that those of you that went there in any capacity are being denied due recognition for your services in going to that conflict in VN its like the stigma of that conflict and another forgotten one the Korean war lingers to this day.
Yes its fine for the armchair red tabbed generals to point to a place on a map to send personnel but to be not recognised for that service is wrong on so many levels unless you were a spook on some never to be told mission then I get it but for general service FFS recognise the troops.
Here it has taken so long for the troops that went the VN to be welcomed to the fold as on their return just like the US troops the public back lash was appalling for them some of the public spat at our troops in uniform I felt utterly ashamed to be an Australian when I saw that.

So I guess you chaps understand the military gearing turns slowly and getting any sort of recognition whether it be a medal which you would be proud of or additional info on your service records will be a long time coming I sincerely hope your still vertical when they relent, a class action maybe!

On a foot note: I managed to get an extra 2 medals for my father (Dec 1985 pic #3) whom sadly for reasons known unto himself never went to any parades, RSL or ANZAC services or talked about WWII, but I am proud to wear a full replica set of his service in honor of his memory and service in WWII. (His originals are in the safe)
Me I'm just a civie but had it ingrained into me about the value of the sacrifice the allied forces endured to give us our freedom, as I have said those of you that have served and continue to serve have my deepest respect and gratitude.

[Daan Kemp]

I am sure tanks can be gainfully used in close terrain such as jungle and cities, with the necessary planning of course. Canister in jungle sounds like a good way of encouraging the enemy to go somewhere else. HE is good against point and hard targets. Artillery? Flat trajectory makes over the hill fun difficult but not impossible.
Innovative thinking probably can solve many of these problems.

---------- Post added at 09:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:14 AM ----------

Medal and other recognitions for wars, campaigns, battles, etc, depends on politics, not generals. The approval process for new recognitions will show you that.

[CINDERS]

Problem solved not only in WWII did we see Sherman's employed as arty with their Ar*e ends dug down front hull up for extra range or to get plunging fire over a hill.
We saw this tactic even more in the Korean conflict with Pershings deployed in the same manner so at a pinch you can always do something to make things work.
What's the saying "Adapt & overcome".

Dads extra medals had me going to the Govt defence page, you have to and fill in the required data they want, I don't think is run by the pollies.
Over the years there have been numerous instances where higher ups get the gongs/accolades but the poor bl**dy infantry gets left out sorta like a boys club.
Like they said of Patton in WWII "Our blood, His guts", hence his nik of Ol' blood & guts.

[Brian Dick]

Gil,

Those little comic book pams were still in the arms room when i was and armorer in the 1980's. I still have one here on my book shelf that I kept for posterity!

Brian

[Gil Boyd]

Brian,
Nice momento of more sedate times when "they" must have thought we all needed to be influenced by Marvel type pamphlets to absorb the weapon