No 4T new to my family

[BurtonP]

Hi Cinders,
I've taken the rifle apart and there are no serial numbers in the top wood. All the oddities including the poor stocking up have been explained. It's made up.

[Alan de Enfield]

The front pad placement had me intrigued so I looked at the pic of my T's one and your one is set back allot more than mine as I am not sure if there was a standard placement for the mounting system.
I know my rifle & scope & mount are legit as they are listed in Peter L & Ian S book on the T being involved in front pad trials hence why mine has multiple stakings.
Have you taken the top woods off to see if there are the rifles serial No. penciled there as it was important that the stock remained with the rifle when the conversion happened at H&H hence they ensured the furniture stayed with the weapon.

There should be about 5 lb's of down force on the front bedding near the muzzle think its the last couple of inches, there could have been shrinkage of the stock with it rocking on the collar at the trigger guard front screw mine did the same but the draws were smashed to a pulp which have been repaired by a master stock maker Ken Davis in Perth.
There is also a stamping on the flats that should be present as well as one under the wrist my rifle is also a 1944 M37C.

My '43 (or has been read as a '45) has the front scope mount in the same place as yours.
I reckon it is a '43 and still has its orignal '43 dated spotter scope.

[GeeRam]

My '43 (or has been read as a '45) has the front scope mount in the same place as yours.
I reckon it is a '43 and still has its orignal '43 dated spotter scope.

Definitely a '43 to my eyes, you can see where the top curve of the upper part of the '3' starts, which wouldn't be there if it was a '5'.

[Roger Payne]

The OP contacted me by PM ydy & I gave him my views on this rifle. TBH I think he had pretty much come to the same conclusions himself, but was looking to see if others felt the same way. Always a sensible move when you're not happy that something is as it should be.

IMHO the rifle isn't a genuine 4T at all. The stamping on the butt socket does not look 80 years old to me, & as mentioned the front pad is set back a little from the receiver ring. I was told a long time ago by PL that this was an acceptable deviation from the specs., but having said that, I have NEVER EVER seen a real 4T that was assembled like that. Neither have any of the other experienced collectors & dealers whom I know. So, if they are out there there ain't many!

I may now be accused by those paranoid about helping fakers to do a better job, but one other feature is the countersinks for the two screw holes in the rear body pad. The countersinks were always a tiny bit smaller than the screw head of the 4BA screws used to attach the pad. This meant that they would have been slightly proud of the surface of the pad. The screw heads were then taken down absolutely flush. This means that the circumference of the screw head is almost imperceptible it is such a close fit against the metal of the surrounding pad. In the rifle shown the countersinks are bigger than the screw heads, leaving a small moat round the screw head. This would be ok on Long Branch rifles, as they were set up that way.......but not on H&H production rifles.

Oh, & the bolt is a replacement. (Has the full round ball bolt knob. BSA never stopped making bolt bodies of the hollowed out type - at least to the best of my knowledge).

There's no doubt lots of other stuff one could pick up on, but I think that's probably enough to make the point. As mentioned the bracket is an old one of my reproductions.........but the scope at least looks genuine!

[Seaforth72]

From my database on No. 4 (T) rifles Rifle D3522 with No. 32 Mk. II scope 15803 was listed for sale by a dealer in the UK. They acknowledged that the "S51" mark on the underside of the butt was "possibly spurious" and that there was a "later mounting bracket". Their description was "Sale A0323 Lot 1152 2023 MARCH 2023 AUCTION" "A CASED .303 (BRIT) 'MODEL NO.4 (T)' BOLT-MAGAZINE SNIPER RIFLE SIGNED BSA, serial no. D3522, WITH ACCESSORIES, dated for 1944 and with applied 'S51' Holland & Holland stamp to wood (possibly spurious) with 25 1/2in. barrel, blacked receiver mounted with threaded pads for a No.32 telescopic sight, elevating rear battle-sight, dove-tailed fore-sight with side protectors, walnut butt-stock with applied cheek-rest, alloy heel-plate, three-quarter length fore-stock with smooth top-cover, in refurbished condition and complete with a reproduction '08 pattern leather sling, a period transit case marked for the same rifle with paper contents label pasted inside the lid, a No.32 MKII telescopic sight, serial no. 15803 (good refurbished condition) complete with its leather lens covers, later mounting bracket (numbered 3522) and metal telescopic sight carry-case (undated, mis-matched number), a Pattern '37 adjustable webbing sling, spare magazine, scrim face-nets and a Scout Regiment three-draw telescope with brown leather external covering in its leather case."

The rifle and scope were listed for resale by another dealer four months later on 2023-07-01 New seller's ad: "Lee Enfield No.4 MK. 1 (T) Surplus Rifle, D3522 "Description This is a correct numbers matching British issued No4 T sniper rifle. Metal is in very good condition with about 95% original finish and no rust. Bore is VG-Exc. Wood is in nice shape, the forend was replaced at some point and is not original. The scope can is also a mismatch. Package includes: Rifle with matching parts, correct No4 T stamps, scope pads and in VG condition. No. 32 Mk II Scope (matching rifle) w/ Case (mismatch) and scope adjustment tool. Mk IIs Spotting Scope w/ Case. Correct leather sling. No. 15 Mk 1 Chest. SKU ISS9124 Serial Number D3522"

The two comments that I will make are:

1. The rifle serial number on the bracket, which we now know is a Roger Payne reproduction with serial number added by someone later, should be the full serial number on a 1944 No. 4 Mk. I (T), including the letter(s) prefix above, in front of, or below the numbers.

2. The serial number D3522 is extremely odd. In the 417 examples recorded in my research database of 1944 BSA No. 4 Mk. I (T) rifles the following patterns emerge. I have listed them in what appears to be the sequence of production in 1944.

* 1944 S/N type A - 2 letters followed by 4 numbers. This appears to be the tail-end of the 1943 style of serial number. e.g. APxxxx, ATxxxx and AVxxxx prefixes noted. In 1943 two-letter prefix number can also be seen in the APxxxx, ATxxxx and AXxxxx series, but this MAY be a case of end of year and beginning of year with some rifles being dated 1944 and others being dated 1945. I know that this out of sequence sort of thing happened with the No. 4 Mk. I (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles as we see examples of these dated 1944 and 1945, intermixed by serial number with fully converted sniper equipment. This suggests that rifles were stockpiled after the preliminary conversion work by Holland & Holland was done (e.g. cheek rest and scope pads added and battle sight removed), while awaiting the supply and fitment of scopes. Some rifles did not advance to the next phase of having the scopes mated to them, likely due to supply delays for telescopes and the end of the contract as mentioned by Peter Laider in his publications. This final step, leading up to the "T" marking, was obviously not done in serial number sequence as the pool of partially converted i.e. (T. LESS TELESCOPE) rifles included both 1944 and 1945 dates.

* 1944 S/N type B - 5 numbers, starting with "3". No letter prefix(-es) e.g. 38240

* 1944 S/N type C - Single letter prefix, followed by "3" and 4 further numbers. e.g. A37484 and C32991, starting with A3xxxx working its way through to R3xxxx. A single example of T33778 (?) (in Italy) and X31848 (in Australia) are reported as being dated 1944 but no photos have been seen to verify this.

Comments are welcome.

[Lance]

With my third book in process here is what I have found concerning BSA manufacture. There are, as I have classified, 6 different marking versions/styles used from 1941-1946.

For this discussion, the two letter prefix and 4 number serial number style began in the first quarter of 1943 with AA and ended with both 1943 and 1944 dated AV prefixes. One can assume multiple assembly lines given serial number blocks.

No letter prefix five digit serial numbers beginning with 3 are 1944 dated, however 1943 dated bodies with 3XXXXA serial numbers do exist and are most likely bodies that failed spec's and were later adjusted and reinserted into production with the A suffix.

1944 dated letter prefix with a five digit serial number beginning with 3 continued to the R35XXX serial number when the date was changed to 1945.

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Lance. I lack your considerable talents for taking down & collating notes but this is also what I have observed over the years, largely from inspecting 4T's. I must say that the changeover from 44 to 45 is also a little blurred, most likely as you say, due to there being more than one production line going at any one time. The reintroduction of 'rectified' rifle bodies into the system is another confounding factor. I can say quite definitely though, that I have seen both 44 & 45 dated P prefix rifles, though only one (possibly two) P's were 45's........but they do exist. Similarly both 44 & 45 dated R prefix rifles, though I have encountered more 45's than 44's.

Colin, I think the first run of the five digit starting with a '3' serials at the outset of 44 were the no prefix run, BSA then working through the alphabet systematically.

I think we can come up with lots of rules & guidelines about Enfields, but it's best to leave it a little fuzzy round the edges, or someone will soon enough tell you they've got an exception!

[CINDERS]

Roger I think it's great that allot of the misconceptions are gradually being ironed out with the Lee line with works by Ian S, Peter L, Brian L, Stratton, Lance and a few other authors.
There has been a vast amount of time the rifles have served and continue to serve in the world and given the amount of conflicts the 303 Lee Enfields have been involved in so much has probably been done at a unit level and armoury levels one wonders if the trail will ever end.

Its probably safe to say that the road of discovery has a long time to go yet, it is one I follow here with interest having learned a reasonable bit about them I'll never ever be a guru I'll leave that to the ones that have the knowledge & experience but I learn from them.
Like has been said here at the odd times "Never say never with the Lee Enfields".

[Roger Payne]

I'd agree, Ron, & maybe expand it a little; "Never say 'never' & never say 'always'."

[BurtonP]

From my database on No. 4 (T) rifles Rifle D3522 with No. 32 Mk. II scope 15803 was listed for sale by a dealer in the UK. They acknowledged that the "S51" mark on the underside of the butt was "possibly spurious" and that there was a "later mounting bracket". Their description was "Sale A0323 Lot 1152 2023 MARCH 2023 AUCTION" "A CASED .303 (BRIT) 'MODEL NO.4 (T)' BOLT-MAGAZINE SNIPER RIFLE SIGNED BSA, serial no. D3522, WITH ACCESSORIES, dated for 1944 and with applied 'S51' Holland & Holland stamp to wood (possibly spurious) with 25 1/2in. barrel, blacked receiver mounted with threaded pads for a No.32 telescopic sight, elevating rear battle-sight, dove-tailed fore-sight with side protectors, walnut butt-stock with applied cheek-rest, alloy heel-plate, three-quarter length fore-stock with smooth top-cover, in refurbished condition and complete with a reproduction '08 pattern leather sling, a period transit case marked for the same rifle with paper contents label pasted inside the lid, a No.32 MKII telescopic sight, serial no. 15803 (good refurbished condition) complete with its leather lens covers, later mounting bracket (numbered 3522) and metal telescopic sight carry-case (undated, mis-matched number), a Pattern '37 adjustable webbing sling, spare magazine, scrim face-nets and a Scout Regiment three-draw telescope with brown leather external covering in its leather case."

The rifle and scope were listed for resale by another dealer four months later on 2023-07-01 New seller's ad: "Lee Enfield No.4 MK. 1 (T) Surplus Rifle, D3522 "Description This is a correct numbers matching Britishicon issued No4 T sniper rifle. Metal is in very good condition with about 95% original finish and no rust. Bore is VG-Exc. Wood is in nice shape, the forend was replaced at some point and is not original. The scope can is also a mismatch. Package includes: Rifle with matching parts, correct No4 T stamps, scope pads and in VG condition. No. 32 Mk II Scope (matching rifle) w/ Case (mismatch) and scope adjustment tool. Mk IIs Spotting Scope w/ Case. Correct leather sling. No. 15 Mk 1 Chest. SKU ISS9124 Serial Number D3522"

From what I learned examining this rifle myself and from far more knowledgeable experts on this forum I'm certain that both of these previous sellers were either fooled or were trying to fool buyers. There's a long list of problems with the rifle beyond the repro mount and replacement forearm. Also, the mismatched scope can has had the scope and rifle numbers scrubbed since these sales.