Savage with No 32 Setup

[hopdevil]

I just picked this up at a large show. It's been a minute since I researched T Rifles and Scopes. What does everyone think I have here?

https://postimg.cc/gallery/csdjx74

[Roger Payne]

Nice find. It's a genuine Savage production 4 T converted by H&H. It has travelled a bit, & the scope & bracket, though genuine are not the original issue with this rifle. The E prefix serial on the Rose Brothers bracket indicates in was originally fitted to a 44 BSA. The scope is a Houghton Butcher Mk1. Judging by the serial it is one of the last Mk1's they made, before switching to the Mk2. The cheekpiece I'm afraid, looks like a home made job, & replacing it with a proper one would be one of my first jobs if I owned your rifle......but that may just be me. The scope has been refurbished at some point in its life; those notches cut into the ocular lens retaining ring have been put there by a civvy restorer to ease unscrewing it, although one sees a lot of scopes that show this feature & it doesn't bother me unduly. The forend of your rifle is a replacement, as Savage rifles were almost always stocked up in stained birch, & your forend is beech. However, it may well have been on a long time. If you take off the butt from your rifle you should see the last four digits of the rifle it was factory fitted to on the tenon that fits into the butt socket. If they match with the serial of your rifle it's the original butt.

Is there a scope serial number on the butt under the back of the bolt/cocking piece? Many Savage rifles were left scopeless & so would not have a scope number here.

[Lee Enfield]

Beautiful rifle,
The most important question: Does it have a 6 Groove, 4 groove, 2 Groove or 5 groove barrel?

[hopdevil]

Thanks Roger. I appreciate the input. The number is not on the tang of the stock for the scope. I will examine the rifle when it arrives. It's currently in shipping back to my residence. I was surprised it lasted almost 3 days at a show. Everyone thought it was a repop? I knew the rifle was at a minimum a real early Savage and the pads for the scope and mount were legit. The scope is in much better condition than the Mk 1/2 hybrid I currently have on my T Sniper.

@Lee Enfield I will examine the bore too when I get it back.

[Surpmil]

One of those that predates the "T" and "TR" markings.

Any Enfield examiner's marks or "S" on the cutoff block?

Noteworthy that those early rifles were not refinished after conversion, the pads being just chemical(?) blued.

My theory is these early uncompleted rifles, if this is one of them, had their pads fitted at RSAF Enfield after the trials rifles were done and when the foundry supplying brackets was bombed out and the supply dried up until the next foundry/foundries got into production, these rifles were probably put into store to get them out of the way. Once H&H was set up in production and the supply of TR rifles directed to them, I'm guessing those early leftover rifles were forgotten and just sat in store until the post-war clearances began.

Whatever the details of that, and they may well be different , I suggest an interruption in the supply of brackets and therefore in the whole conversion process is the most plausible explanation for these half-converted orphans. RSAF Enfield would have had lots of other work going on and probably no space for things that weren't being used. It might be that fitting of pads continued for some period of time before a decision was made to stop, and if so that would explain the fair number of these rifles that seem to have survived.

Such an interruption in production would also help to explain the very low numbers of No4(T)s on hand in that inventory taken in late 1943 which I've quoted before.

[Lee Enfield]

One of those that predates the "T" and "TR" markings.

Any Enfield examiner's marks or "S" on the cutoff block?

...snip....

In my estimation if a Savage No4T has a "T", "TR" or the cutoff "S", the markings have been added later.

Hey RogerP:

: wouldn't a Savage No4T butt stock pre-date the serial marking under the socket shelf?

Too many legit rifles have been "ruined" by owners/retailers trying to "correct" their "out of spec" rifles.

FYI
I've seen a Savage with "converted trials rifle" inspection markings on the front pad, but believe that the pad was probably replaced at some point.

[Roger Payne]

This issue of the rifle serial number on the butt tenon on Savage rifles has come up recently in another thread. My rifles have been so marked (last four digits) & another forummer who owns two Savage T's removed the butts on his to check & found the same thing. A few other people who have these rifles have noted the same too. I suspect this practice (at H&H) must have started before the practice of marking the T, S etc. However, early Savage conversions do seem to the sport the S51 on the butt semi pistol grip, which I have taken to indicate that this also appeared earlier than the other 'typical' markings. Obvious exceptions to this (bearing the S51) would be any RSAF Enfield converted Savage rifles. I would agree absolutely with lee enfield that if I saw an early Savage with T, TR, S & so forth, I would be looking at it VERY critically.

[Brian Dick]

Savage rifles were never marked "TR" unless done by an enterprising Armourer, (or uninformed faker), after the fact. It was a marking used on BSA rifles to separate them for conversion to sniper at H&H. Guessing the rifle is a "Less Telescope" rifle that someone completed with a scope and bracket. I have both Savage Mk.1 and Mk.1* rifles marked S51 on the butts as converted at H&H and neither was ever completed with the addition of the telescope and bracket. Hence, no finish "T" stamped on the left side of the body.

[Lee Enfield]

This issue of the rifle serial number on the butt tenon on Savage rifles has come up recently in another thread. My rifles have been so marked (last four digits) & another forummer who owns two Savage T's removed the butts on his to check & found the same thing. A few other people who have these rifles have noted the same too. I suspect this practice (at H&H) must have started before the practice of marking the T, S etc. However, early Savage conversions do seem to the sport the S51 on the butt semi pistol grip, which I have taken to indicate that this also appeared earlier than the other 'typical' markings. Obvious exceptions to this (bearing the S51) would be any RSAF Enfield converted Savage rifles. I would agree absolutely with lee enfield that if I saw an early Savage with T, TR, S & so forth, I would be looking at it VERY critically.

2 of my Savage No4Ts appear to retain the original butt stocks - I guess I will have to pull them to see what I find.

[Surpmil]

If there are numbers of unfinished Savage No.4(T)s with the S51, but no T or TR, AND no scope numbers on original buttstocks, then I would see that as pretty clear evidence that it was production at H&H that was interrupted by an interruption in bracket supply, or did production at H&H and RSAF Enfield overlap by a period of months?

IIRC Peter's research correctly, the scope numbers were marked on the butts from the beginning of the trials conversions at Enfield, so the lack of such numbers on an original S51 buttstock, must mean an unfinished conversion(?)