Scope serial #'s

[Hollywood]

How do scope serial numbers compare to rifle serial numbers on the A4's? Did they start numbering scopes with 0001, and put it on the first A4? Or is it just a random pairing, such as a five digit scope number on one of the first thousand A4's?

Information

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[Chuckindenver]

they have nothing to do with each other, the serial for the scope, is just that.
and has nothing to do with the serial of the rifle.

[JGaynor]

How do scope serial numbers compare to rifle serial numbers on the A4's? Did they start numbering scopes with 0001, and put it on the first A4? Or is it just a random pairing, such as a five digit scope number on one of the first thousand A4's?

Weaver reportedly supplied about 36,000 scopes to the government during WW2. The serial numbers on the three main variations of the M73B1 seem to start around 5000 or 6000 (for electopenciled 330C's) right on up to around 36,000 for the 3rd variant or roughly equivalent to the total number manufactured.
(I may be off on the low number range. Hopefully Mike Haas will jump in with some of his data.)

It would thus appear that Weaver may have accounted for the unnumbered 330c's and 330 Scope - M.8's used on early production of A4's when establishing the starting point for the scopes that were in fact equipped with serial numbers.

So the short answer to your question is that very early rifles would most likely been originally equipped with unnumbered commercial scopes. Then the electopenciled 330C's would have come on stream. The largest number of rifles would have been equipped with the second model (roll stamped nomenclature Weaver's name and address and the sn electropenciled on the tube. Finally some of the very late production may have been equipped with the third model which had the GI part numbers. I say may because some of the third model scopes that have been located still in their original packaging show 1945 production dates well after A4 production was over. So their use may have been as spare parts.

As a practical matter the M73B1 in all its flavors proved to be pretty delicate in combat and many were damaged, repaired or replaced. After the war when the rifles were sent for C&R and placed in storage the scopes seem to have been separated in most if nor all cases. If you manage to get your hands on a decent a A4 and a GI scope you have done well in my book.


Regards,

Jim

[Hollywood]

So an early A4, say within the first 2000 produced, would most likely have had a commercial 330 (with no electropencil markings) mounted on it?

[Mike Haas]

So an early A4, say within the first 2000 produced, would most likely have had a commercial 330 (with no electropencil markings) mounted on it?

Hollywood - IMO your statement is a tad incorrect. If the scope is a 1st series (M73B1) it will have the commercial 330C marking on the Data Plate and would have the electro-pencil nomenclature on the tube.

While its certainly possible non-marked 330C's were actully used I steer away from using one simply because there is no ducumentation of that being the case. (that I have observed). Hence your combination will be forever questioned.
IMO if your going for an authentic(most correct) 03-A4 rifle and scope combination (1st 2000 A4's) look for a Series 1 engraved scope with a serial # of about 2 to 5 thousand.

If you scroll down through the forum you'll find where I linked two current eBay Auctions for M73B1 scopes. One has a serial # 5815.

As JGaynor said a authentic 03-A4 with any of the(3 series) Military marked M73B1 scopes is highly desirable. Much better than with a unmarked 330C.

As Jim Gaynor said it appears the scopes were serilized starting at 1000 and up. I have record of #1155 and 1186 and feel those are authentic.

[Mike Haas]

Look at Xarmor's post on A4 bolts - excellant picture of M73B1 scope serial # 1034?

[xarmor]

Look at Xarmor's post on A4 bolts - excellant picture of M73B1 scope serial # 1034?

The SN is 10348, last # is partially covered by the rear ring.

[Johnny Peppers]

In years past vintage hunting rifles with Weaver 330 scopes were quite common at gun shops and gun shows. When was the last time you saw one on an old hunting rifle?

[JGaynor]

So an early A4, say within the first 2000 produced, would most likely have had a commercial 330 (with no electropencil markings) mounted on it?

In short yes. Either a 330C or a 330 Scope - M.8 which according to Mr. Campbell "The O3 Springfield Era" were the scopes used on the earliest A4's.


This suggestion generates some controversy since the 330C was made for several years before and several years after WW2 and was one of the most popular scopes in the US. So there were and are plenty of them around. Some have been equipped bogus military markings by humpers.

The overriding factor to keep in mind here is that the telescopic sight was the critical path item effecting the delivery of A4 rifles. (To a lesser degree so were the lens dust caps.)

The best single source on A4 production is an article written by Bill Hansen for Remington Society of America Journal in the fall of 2004 (3rd quarter) entitled "Snarls, Snafus and Snipers - Stories behind the M1903A4 Sniper Rifle".
Copies of the issue can be ordered thru the society's website.

Regards,

Jim

[Mike Haas]

In short yes. Either a 330C or a 330 Scope - M.8 which according to Mr. Campbell "The O3 Springfield Era" were the scopes used on the earliest A4's.


This suggestion generates some controversy since the 330C was made for several years before and several years after WW2 and was one of the most popular scopes in the US. So there were and are plenty of them around. Some have been equipped bogus military markings by humpers.

The overriding factor to keep in mind here is that the telescopic sight was the critical path item effecting the delivery of A4 rifles. (To a lesser degree so were the lens dust caps.)

The best single source on A4 production is an article written by Bill Hansen for Remington Society of America Journal in the fall of 2004 (3rd quarter) entitled "Snarls, Snafus and Snipers - Stories behind the M1903A4 Sniper Rifle".
Copies of the issue can be ordered thru the society's website.

Regards,

Jim

Jim's point is well made. The 330/330C scopes were in fact commercial 'Hunting Scopes' and were never built for Military 'Combat' Service so they did indeed fail under such usage.
In essence they were "drafted" - pressed into service so to speak. I tend to think that the relative un-inpressive performance result of the the 1903-A4 and the M73B-1 Scope was not so much a failure of the actual handware as it was an ill-conceived attempt to provide a 'tool' under Wartime circumstance that wasn't practical. The fact that limted numbers of A4's and M73B1 Scopes tends to support that thought IMO.
The failuire of the concept is what makes the remaining 'original' examples so valuable a rarity. Not the performance of the rifle/scope combination.

JMO - Mike Haas