1973 and gun laws

[Dave]

I need to get some info on ATF regs as they were in the 1968 time frame. Specificaly a 4473 form and rules for out of state purchase of pistols. I seem to remember name, address, age and other info on the form, correct? plus the list of questions that would be easy to lie about, as to-day, but was any ID required, such as a drivers license? And could a resident from out of state purchase a pistol across the counter? Would a military person be considered a resident of ANY state he was stationed in or was this local state law? I had a FFL about this time but unfortunitly didn't keep any old 4473's.

For those who wonder this concerns a recent book that was written about a murder/rape serial killer that occured here in 1973. The gun was found months later in a river and ATF traced it to a pawn shop sold to a John Smith outside a large Army camp in Yuma AR. Book says no useful info on the form except the name but the name was so commen it was not of much use. Now this seems like a clear violation on the part of the pawn shop (FFL dealer). The killer was found and convicted in 1999, by finailly locating John Smith. The gun had been stolen from him by an acquintance years before.

A VERY good book, An Ordinary Killer, by Anthony Hornus. He lives here and I am going to write him a letter so I need some facts. Thanks, before hand.

PS; Also no mention in the book about trying to trace the gun thru MI state registration records or charging John Smith with non-registration. Another question!

Information

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[conductor]

Under the terms of the Gun Control Act of 1968, interstate transfers of handguns was always prohibited unless the recipient was the holder of a valid FFL. So an out-of-state buyer in 1973 who did not have an FFL would not have been able to legally purchase a handgun from anyone. Also, prior to 1986 when the GCA '68 was amended, buyer of long guns could only buy if they lived in a "contiguous state".... that is, a state that bordered the state where the sale took place. And, sales of long guns to out-of-state buyers was done on a green 4473 form, a copy of which was sent to the chief law-enforcement officer of the jurisdiction where the buyer lived. The chief LEO had ten days in which to respond to the dealer if he wanted to quash the sale. If the dealer did not get a negative response within the ten day limit, the buyer could pick up the gun.

As far as to what sort of ID was required, there was no specific type of ID that was needed to meet the requirements on the 4473 form. As a matter of fact, there was a space on the form where the dealer could put down that the buyer was "known" to him, and the buyer could do the deal without showing any ID at all. I bought a number of guns from a local dealer in the 70s, and he checked the "Is known to me" block. No dealer who had any sense would check that block if he really didn't know the buyer. But then again, there are a lot of stupid people out there, so who's to say it never happened?

[conductor]

Several other points about the book: I was stationed at MCAS Yuma, Az in the 1970s, and there was a flea market at the local drive-in theater that always had a lot of guns for sale. Also, there is no "large Army camp" anywhere near Yuma.

[Neal Myers]

One detail not clear from your post is WHAT form they are talking about, & WHEN the gun was purchased. If it was bought < 1968, there was no 4473 & the "form" could have been the generic sales receipt used by many dealers.

For mail order, you could order a gun from any dealer in the US (& some distributors) simply by mailing your check/MO & completing a form. Such a form would have had spaces for date, name, address, & item ordered/purchased; at the bottom would have been the "statement' (I swear I am over 21, not a fugitive from justice, etc), & space for a signature.)

That was it. I was never asked for a drivers license, although I guess abuse in those days was so rare that few folks even thought about it.

[Jim K]

Some misinformation, there. Prior to 1968, any gun could be ordered through the mail. There was no "form", the only requirement was that a handgun buyer had to enclose a signed statement (could be handwritten) that the buyer was "21 or over, not an alien, not convicted of a crime of violence, not under indictment, not a fugitive from justice or a drug addict." (Quote from Klein's ad, Dec. 1960 American Rifleman)

The same statement, required by Federal law, was also required for purchase of a handgun from a dealer. There was no prohibition on interstate sales of any firearm, even an auto weapon, if NFA rules were complied with.

However, many states had more rigid control, including waiting periods, police approval or police permits.

After 1968, mail order sales were banned, and interstate sales were prohibited except for the contiguous state rule mentioned above. To make that exemption effective, both states had to pass laws allowing it; some states never did.

The 4473 was green, but any requirement to send a copy to the police was local, not part of federal law. There was no "waiting period" or police approval under federal law, but many states had or would have such a law.

Unless the buyer was known to the dealer, the dealer was supposed to have a valid ID for the buyer, and check it against the 4473, but many just accepted whatever the buyer wrote down without checking. Except as required by state law, dealer sale of a handgun was no different than sale of a long gun.

Jim

[Dave]

So you are saying that in 1968, as of July 5, there was no 4473 form filled out, only after 1968? The base was the US Army Proving ground near the AZ-CA border, 24 miles N. of Yuma. So a guy from MI could purchase a pistol over the counter. He was stationed at the base.

[conductor]

So you are saying that in 1968, as of July 5, there was no 4473 form filled out, only after 1968? The base was the US Army Proving ground near the AZ-CA border, 24 miles N. of Yuma. So a guy from MI could purchase a pistol over the counter. He was stationed at the base.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 did not come into effect until December 15th of that year, so you are correct in that a person who purchased a pistol on July 5th, 1968 would not have filled out a 4473 (the form did not exist at that time). There was also no federal law regulating the interstate sale of firearms at that time.

Yuma Proving Ground is just where you say it is. But as far as being a "large army camp".... well, it does cover a lot of acreage. But there are not a lot of soldiers stationed there. I would say that there are only 200 or so. At least that's the way it was in the 1970s when I was stationed at Yuma MCAS.

[Dave]

The author merely states that the base covers 1300 sq. miles and is 'one of the largest military installations in the world". No mention of personal, so yes, he was talking about physical size. Was set up in 1942 and site of Patton's tanker training. The gun ws purchased at a large Pawn shop and the owner was questioned for any additional info he might remember, but he also had several employees, no indication which one did the deal.

So this only leaves the MI registration law. No mention of any attemped trace thru that was made in the book. I am wondering why. Thanks again!

[Sarge]

Prior to the GCA 68 there was also no requirement for a "bound book" so the hock shop would have had only what ever records he chose to keep, or was required by the city - which in those days might have been zip?
I didn't keep any, just gave the guy a recp't - if he ask for one.
I dropped my FFL in about 1969 cause I was in the Army and on my way to RVN. Didn't get another till 75 and things had changed greatly on record keeping requirements.
Sarge

[Jim K]

A bound book was required prior to 1968; when I dropped my FFL in 1966, I had to send the book to ATTD. I kept other business records and destroyed them ten years later.

Jim