USMC vs Spanish mausers

[Art]

It's even worse when you consider that he (Wilson) undid the steps toward integrating the Federal buracracy started by Theodore Roosvelt. When he was told that some black and white Federal employees might have to have to share offices because of a lack of room he ordered partitions built in all such facilites.

[jon_norstog]

Art, Steve,

You guys are calling it out. When I was in public school the teachers all talked about Wilson like he was some kind of champion of human rights and the self-determination of nations. Ivy LeAgue college president and all. But he was just kind of twisted up inside with fear and hate of black people.

We would have been a stronger nation in 1941 if we had put all that behind us like we could have. If we tried. We got lucky in WWII, the British and the Russians held the line for us, and the Russians ground the Wermacht up like it was hamburger.

I wonder if the US could have fought on alone, with 15% of its fighting strength segregated out of the fight. And a home population being treated like dirt under the Jim Crow system. I think we got lucky, real lucky.

Anyway, I guess one thing we can do is remember the Buffalo Soldiers and tell our children about how they fought at El Caney and San Juan Hill. Wish we'd had them supporting the Marines at Chateau Thierry and Ypres. At Normandy. And stiffening up the 101st at Bastogne.

jn

[13Echo]

Actually black troops did help the 101st at Bastogne. Gen Lee, the Army quartermaster and a relative of Robert E. Lee, recommended that black troops be allowed to volunteer to serve in white only units during the Battle of the Bulge. The troops had to give up their rank and serve as privates in the white units. Many did and they served with distinction and the white units didn't want them to give them up when the emergency was over. This had a lot to do with integration of the military after WW II by Truman.

Jerry Liles

[Calif-Steve]

I was at Federal Black History event a few years back. One of the speakers, a black lady, described how Lincoln had freed the slaves and how for many years most blacks voted Republican. The auditorium just howled with laughter. No one believed this lady! I think Wilson gets a pass when he doesn't deserve it. I have to laugh when I hear his name mentioned by black Democrats today. He just doesn't deserve that level of respect.

[Fredtheobviouspseudonym]

Wilson didn't like Orientals either.

At the Versailles Conference in 1919 the Japanese introduced a Racial Equality Clause -- by modern standards very mild, just calling for nations not to be treated differently if they weren't European. [Don't quote me on this as I have no reference in front of me.]

Wilson would have none of it. "I'm not letting anything go through that says I'm the equal of any [deleted] Japanese!" [He actually used a more derogatory term that cannot be repeated today.]

The Japanese, of course, heard about this. Didn't do US-Japanese relations any good.

[No, I'm not saying that justifies Pearl Harbor -- and the Japanese of that time earned a solid spot in the Racists Hall of Fame. Just ask any Korean or Chinese. But Woody's outburst sure didn't help matters.]

[Jim K]

Racism toward Orientals certainly didn't begin with Wilson. Fear of "the yellow peril" was widespread from the time the railroads imported Chinese to perform manual labor in the latter half of the 19th century.

In all truth, hatred of the Irish, Italians and Slavs was almost as great. In the Titanic sinking, there were so many [untrue] stories about "Italians" rushing the lifeboats that the Italian ambassador lodged a formal protest. In the Johnstown flood similar stories of "Dagos" and "Hunkies" (Hungarians, but used to mean any eastern European) looting and robbing corpses were commonplace. None were true.

Blacks, of course, were not spared race hatred but were considered so low as to barely rate a mention in the press, for good or ill. Only if a black person was accused of a crime against a WASP was the incident noteworthy and the assumption was always that the black was guilty.

Jim

[jon_norstog]

Jim, Fred, guys,

My thought is that the military has been a positive force - soldiers, marines and sailors serve together in war or other emergencies, they learn what counts in a human being. I think back to Rudyard Kipling, trying to tell the people back home in hincty olde England that a fighting man should be valued for his qualities, not skin color or social class.

WHat 13E said, I never knew that, but it makes sense they would throw every man they had into the lines during the Bulge. And he draws a straight line from that to Truman's desegregation order. So it was the military and not the social liberals who took that step.

The US has a long way to go to make things right, but I get the feeling that a lot of us are doing our part. The Vietnam vets, we're the elders now. A lot of us still struggle, but I think we all know that a man ain't nothin but a man. Some you can count on, some you can't. Same goes for women.

I read a lot of posts on this list that indicate an appreciation and respect for others that is sometimes lacking in other forums. It gives me some hope and encouragement.

jn

Probably most of us on this list are veterans

[beachbumbob]

Jim, Fred, guys,

My thought is that the military has been a positive force - soldiers, marines and sailors serve together in war or other emergencies, they learn what counts in a human being. I think back to Rudyard Kipling, trying to tell the people back home in hincty olde England that a fighting man should be valued for his qualities, not skin color or social class. ......

The US has a long way to go to make things right, but I get the feeling that a lot of us are doing our part. The Vietnam vets, we're the elders now. A lot of us still struggle, but I think we all know that a man ain't nothin but a man. Some you can count on, some you can't. Same goes for women. ......

Probably most of us on this list are veterans

Jon,

I think you have hit the nail on the head there. I grew up in a segregated town in the mountains of Western NC. We had a few blacks (colored and Negro's were the PC terms in those days) in our school. There was also a Black High School in the town. The school district attendence was drawn up by location but no doubt a lot of gerry-mandering was involved. The school system was fully integrated the year after my graduation by court order. The first word I learned to read was white. This was taught to me by my grandparents at a very early age when I was caught drinking water out of the wrong drinking fountain at Woolworth's. A little kid only knows that he's thirsty.

It's funny how thing's progress although probably pretty slowly if you are are the wrong side of the progression.

My parents called them colored; to my grandparents they were Negros and I won't even say (but I imagine you can guess) what my great grandparents called them. Now in defense of my great grandparents there was no overt malice intended, it was just a noun be it collective or singular.

My first encounter with numbers of non-caucasians was basic training. We were a pretty homogenous group. White, black and a strong contengent of Puerto Rican National Guardsman. We didn't have a lot of time for the bickering and it worked out well. Later, when I made the trip across the water my first foxhole buddy was a ghetto black from inner city Detroit-certainly a through the looking glass experience but in reality that entire year was one. He was and will probably remain my closest friend in this lifetime. He was killed about 20 years ago in a car wreck and the world is a lesser place with his loss.

And in the end of this strange trip called life we do learn that there are individuals that you can count on and those that fail to pass muster and it has nothing whatsoever to do with race, religion, wealth or social status; it is something that is developed in each individual by their upbringing and faith.

And whatever else we as Vietnam veterans have or have not done, we have certainly made sure that the current veterans have not received the same treatment and lack of appreciation for the sacrifices they have made as we received upon our return!

Soapbox Free!

Bob