Attention CCW Holders

[JohnMOhio]

Art, that is part of the process. I know you and I are about the same age, and if my guess is correct neither you nor I could run the distance of a 3 lane highway in an attempt to get away like a 30 year old could. At our age, running is not an option, so what is the option? Practice, maintains a cool head, think in your mind what you could possibly do and act on it.

For example: Here is the scene. Your threatened by two individuals, one has the gun, the heavier of the two, about 270 pounds is standing about 25 feet from you and there is no close cover. The skinny kid about 140 pounds is to the left. They demand you wallet and as your getting your wallet out the skinny one says to his buddy, Pop him. What do you do? How do you handle the situation in your favor so you at least have a chance?

[John Sukey (Deceased)]

shoot the one with the gun first, then the other. Unless the other one runs away. If he doesn't, well that's just too bad. I thought the other one was reaching for a gun. and "I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE" Remember that last sentence! cause that's what you tell the cops.

[JohnMOhio]

I agree with you Mr. Sukey. I thought about this because this question was proposed on a CCW site I visited.

Here is what I would do. First, since I carry right side, I would turn to my right motioning that I am getting my wallet out of my left rear pocket and saying that. When I take it out, I would toss it to the right side of the guy with the gun as I do not want them to get any closer to me. I would hope that two things would happen. One that the guy with the gun would keep his eyes on me and two that the skinny guy be dumb enough to cross over in front of his partner to retrieve the wallet. When the skinny guy passes in front of his partner I would be able to draw my handgun. At that point I would have to decide if I would move to my left or right. If I move to the right, I could use the skinny guy as cover as he would be between me and the fellow with the gun and provide me with some cover if only monentarily but he would then be closer and present a hazard. If I moved left, no cover for me however I would have a cleaner shot at the one with the gun and could then concentrate on the second fellow.

[Former Cav]

I thought I would ask 5 questions based on our discussion of the Glock Stove Piping thread.

1.How many of you CCW Holders have actually taken an advance course in combat style shooting after you obtained your CCW Permit?

No formal course. I have dabled in IPSC shooting years ago.

2.How many times per month do you practice, what is your method of practice?

Once. I practice drawing from my CCW IWB holster which is under my shirt and / or jacket. I do this maybe 5 times before I then draw and fire two rounds on the target. Do this maybe 10 times. Then draw, fire and MOVE diagonally away from the target. I try to keep practicing through 100-200 rounds. I can't run due to physical handicap.

3.Do you have any advance courses available in your area?

Not that I am aware of, and the ones that I do know of are beyond my retired income level.

4. If you did take an advance course, what did they offer?

N/A

5. What was the most important thing you learned in the course that helped you shoot better.

N/A

A Good pair of questions to pose to all of the CCW folks is this:
1) are you willing to shoot someone and KILL them or CRIPPLE them for life?

2) what are your awareness levels in your day to day life?
that is;
a) are you totally oblivious to everything around you? (code white or whatever you want to call it)
b)are you aware of who is around you and if there is any cover near by (code yellow)
c)are you aware of someone or something around you that gives you a bad gut feeling and you are ready to draw? (code orange)
d)are you in the mode that you KNOW you have to draw and fire or react (code red).
etc...

[Rick Gushman]

John M, You mentioned shooting on the run while attempting to find cover. I personally do not recommend that course of action. I have had the opportunity to shot on the run with a handgun and my accuracy was definitely compromised. If a gunfight finds me, I will shoot fast and accurately - that's the best defense I know and the accuracy part of that strategy precludes shooting on the run. Rick

[JohnMOhio]

Former Cav and Rick, I agree with both of you on all points. As Cav mentioned, your taught to shoot center mass to stop the attack. However, shooting center mass as we all know is really a kill shot to the most vital organs other than a head shot. The results are already known. Your questions Cav are correct, are we prepared to take that shot, are we aware of our surroundings and what is going on all the time. Knowing our surroundings could also make the difference of not having to shoot.

Gus, I also agree with you, when you can't run or move, shot placement is the key to survival. However, not moving, even if not on a run ups your survival rate than staying put. However, assuming the situation I mentioned, if you can't run, dropping to one knee would make you a smaller target.

As I understand, advance courses include understanding your surroundings, shooting on the move and mind set as they call it. Some also include what is most likely to happen even if your shooting is justified. Civil action by the family of the deceased or the crippled. The basic CCW course only teaches you what you need to obtain a license to carry. If you have not thought about what happens afterward, then maybe you should. That is what I was hoping to eventually accomplish by starting this thread and open it up for discussion.

Above all accuracy is still the key to survival. Practice, Practice, Practice.
Thank you both for you imput.

[Art]

[QUOTE=Former Cav;41320]I thought I would ask 5 questions based on our discussion of the Glock Stove Piping thread.


1) are you willing to shoot someone and KILL them or CRIPPLE them for life?

This is extremely important. I went to an excellent week long school run by the U.S. Marshall's Service Special Operations Unit back in the late 1980's. Most of you guys would have loved it. Lots of shooting with rifles, pistols, shotguns and submachine guns in lots of different scenarios. I consider it the best training I ever had military or civilian. I think it interesting that at least back then the Marshalls S.O.G. were the only people who would say as a matter of policy they "shot to kill." No political correctness there.

The first day one of the instructors said that everyone who carries a firearm for a living should take an hour or so off at least once a year to reflect on the very issue raised by Former Cav. He said that if the answer is "no" the honorable thing to do is resign. I know of one case in which a Police Officer in the northeast realized after making an arrest of an armed subject that he simply wasn't going to be able to pull the trigger and resigned. That guy was a former Army sniper who had served in Vietnam. He had shot a lot of people over there but realized after this incident he just wasn't able to do it any more.

I think that should apply to every CHL holder too.

[0311Shooter]

I realize we all live in different states, but contrary to what JohnM said, my CCW class did cover the legality of certain situations. I recall a couple of things he said, back when I first took it 10 years ago.

If someone is in the next room, has a knife, and says "I am going to kill you", you cannot do anything. If he is in the same room with you, then you can defend yourself. So the threat must be imminent, and within reach.

Another scenario he described, actually happened I suppose, is a guy saw a car stop, try to pull a screaming kid into a car, and the CCP holder acted. Turns out it was just a parent getting his kid. So you MUST be sure there is an actual threat before you intervene.

Probably dozens of scenarios that one must consider. Trouble is not every one can be described. The one we will confront was not in the book.

[JohnMOhio]

Thanks Art and Shooter, this is the dicussion I was trying to get at. Often what we might see is not what it appears. The course I took did cover a somewhat similar situtation as you described Shooter. What they did not cover is how you might go about protecting yourself financially after the shooting. Any ideas there?

[Art]

If your state has a "Castle Doctrine" law and the shooting was justifiable there may not even be an issue as far as civil liability goes. The Castle Doctrine Law here in Texas holds a person harmless in any Civil Action that would result from a justifiable homicide (I understand this protection does not apply to injury to a third party as the result of negligence.) Before the Texas Castle Doctrine law was passed here there were folks who lost everything in wrongful death or personal injury lawsuits after a shooting was found to be justifiable under the criminal statues.

One way or the other it does no harm to have the phone number of a good lawyer.