1916 Shortened SMLE Enfield?

[Peter Laidler]

Can anyone shed any light on this series of shortened SMLE rifles. This particular example is an Enfield Mk3 dated 1916 so not from the Lithgow stable. It is housed at the Weapons collection at Warminster. There is no signs of true 'lightening' as such, just shortened although as if to 'balance ' the rifle, the butt is slimmed right down front to rear as per the No5 style. But alas, nothing else visible. The backsight slide has been recalibrated but only to 800. Alongside is a 2 foot steel rule for sizing.

Just for interest, everything up to the band is standard and the band sling loop is positioned exactly where the nose cap loop would be. The nose cap sits back against the band There is no cut-and-shut bodginess (or bubba-ing in wild colonial language) or rough dodgy joints........................ Recoils like a No5 too

Any ideas Forumers?

Information

Warning: This is a relatively older thread This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.

[louthepou]

I have no idea where that could come from but I'm thinking that next time I find a smle with a bubba'ed, cut-down rifle...

I don't know, I just find the look of that rifle interesting...

Lou

[Bruce_in_Oz]

The front end looks like the prototype Australian "shortened and lightened", which had 18.2" barrels with the band very close to the nose cap. The standard looking SMLE rear sight is different, though.

It may be an example of "product development". Skennerton, in "The Lee Enfield", 2007, states "A similar conversion had already been effected in Britain as the basic design was merely a shortened, full-stocked No.1 rifle..........their British counterparts utilised the original bed backsight, making the sight radius even shorter" (page 347)

I have seen a Lithgow drawing that shows the 18.2" Australian version as "Rifle, .303, Intermediate" and detailing a comparison for length with a standard No.1. This also shows a different rearsight from the trials versions. There exists a separate drawing for the rear sight components as "Sight, Trial, for Special Cut-Down Rifle, 20 1/4" Barrel".

So, it is likely to be a sample of "3D thinking" along the way to the No.5.

[No4Mk1(T)]

Interesting..
How is the crown on the muzzle cut? Is it a proper job or just cut flat like in a lathe?
The photo of the plug for the inner band screw looks a tad rough. Is that just the photo?

[Son]

The Lithgow Shortened Lightened rifles were a production run of 100 "Intermediate Length" rifles with 20.4" barrel. Before these, some of the tradesmen at the factory were tasked with hand making rifles to submit for consideration. There were a few different lengths made. Of these, two basic "styles" were selected and a prototype run of about ten each "Shortened Lightened Short Rifles" (18" barrel) and "Shortened Lightened Intermediate Rifles" (20.2" barrel) were done. The intermediate length was selected and a hundred were made with matching bayonets, serialled XP1 to XP100.

One thing I can assure you of, all the trademens examples, prototypes and the 100 trial XP rifles had receiver mounted rear sights of some type. This was a design stipulation right from the start.

Peter, I'd assume if the rifle there was an official conversion or experimentation done in England, there would be at least one in the Pattern Room.
The only thing I could suggest, is the longer it's been in Warminster locked away, the less likely it is a "bubba". After all, he hasn't been making the ultra rare "Tanker Carbine" for that long!

Here's a couple of pics from the back room and displays at the Lithgow Small Arms Factory Museum....

First pic is a very short rifle, one of the original handmade tradesman's rifles.
Second pic I think is one of the finished XP rifles (intermediate)
Third pic is the rack again- this time look at the second last rifle on the first rack- definately one of the "Short" prototypes.
Fourth pic is in the display- A no5, an S&L prototype, and an S&L (intermediate) XP with bayonet and a No6 at the bottom.

[Badger]

For some additional background color and some more tangental research information building upon Son's post .....

With thanks to Advisory Panel members Lance and Wheaty, check the Australia - Milsurp Knowledge Library (click here)

1944 No.1 Intermediate Shortened & Lightened Rifle - Serial XP53 "Experimental" (click here) .....

There's also an interesting associated thread in our Commercial Auction and Sale "Gossip" (click here) forum titled Reference Thread - Australian Arms Auctions - May 4th, 2008 (click here) .

This thread contains a post regarding one of these rifles (Serial XP45) that sold at the Australian Arms Auctions on May 4th, 2008 for $7,000 AUSD.

Regards,
Badger

[Thunderbox]

I know a UK RFD who has several SMLEs like this. He said they were conversions made for a school cadet force in the South East. They were only intended as drill rifles for junior cadets, and not to be fired. I think it was one of the big schools established for servicemens' kids, where the kids of all ages wore a sort of uniform and did cadet drill. I gather the rifles were all converted in the 1920s or thereabout, and were private school property rather than War Office issue.

[louthepou]

I can just about imagine feeling the recoil from one of the shortests...

Lou

[breakeyp]

The remarked 800yd backsight on your rifle certainly seems to support work done to duplicate the No.5 era. If it was for a boy's school and not to be fired--why remark sights?

I have the short ones illustrated by Skennerton. Skennerton, Alley and I always felt they were authentic given the sources where Alley obtained them.

To complete the record, in the 1970's I saw short barrelled No.1s in Canada --full British with new Indian made/proofed short barrels. We were told they were modified for easy of use by mounted troops--tanks/vehicles as there weren't enough smgs available. Also in the mid 90's, SARCO was selling shortened No.1s. I saw 8 at one time there. I suspect they were shortened by Century Arms as they were of the same markings/condition as the surplus Century was selling at the same time.

[Terry Hawker]

Paul,

Thanks so much for that information. That is more than is available in the usual texts.

Mine is buried in the back of the safe, so the following is from a CRS-cursed memory. It is one of the 21 1/4" barrel models, all matching, made by S.S.A., re-barrelled in the early 1940's and bearing Canadian government ownership marks. The inletting for the nose-cap appears professionally done, as does the re-crowning of the muzzle. The butt is stamped, "AUS" and something else I can't remember without pulling it out, but I do remember it was a different marking than those pictured in Skennerton's books.

Two or three years before I bought it, at the Phoenix gun show with the friend who owned it at the time, we saw another, with identical butt markings to this one, so it wasn't a "one-off". When I discussed it with Ian he thought it was probably legit, but done by the trade, in Britain, during the war.

Always, in the back of my mind, is the hauntingly nagging thought, is this just perhaps a much earlier version of the infamous, "Greek Jungle Carbine"? No offense, Goo!

Guess I will have to dig it out and take some pix.

Regards,

Terry