B Company Scout/Snipers, 321 Inf, 81 Div 13 Feb 18

[Jim Tarleton]

This is a heavily cropped picture of the B Company, 321 Inf, 81 Div Scout/Snipers in Feb of 1918 in France. No scopes that I can see, and if I am not mistaken, those are M1917's. I didn't know the AEF had M1917's that early in the war (issued).

I know squat about the 321 Infantry.

Jim

Information

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[Bolo Badge]

The 321st Infantry of the 81st (Wildcat) Division arrived in France in August 1918. They were a National Army division made up of draftees from Florida, Georgia, and South Carolina. They trained at Camps Jackson and Sevier in SC. They deployed armed with the M1917 rifle. The were one of the last divisions to arrive that saw combat.

In addition to being the first unit to use the BAR in combat they were the first division to wear a unit shoulder patch. Upon their arrival in France General Pershing liked what he saw and authorized all other units to wear a unit of assignment patch on their left sleeve. This custom continues to this day with Army units but was discontinued after WWII in the Marine Corps.

[Jim Tarleton]

So this picture could not have been taken in France in Feb 1918. Never trust a museum!

Jim

[Lancebear]

Hey Jim,

Looks like a few real bad#ss killers in the photo, maybe a little thousand yard stare also.

You can quit lookin' for a model 1917 scoped sniper rifle. Think Mr. Ferris states in his M1917 book that a sniper model was in development, but fuggeddabout it when the M1903 was adopted as standard. One or two were made if I remember correctly. Those big rear sight protector ears must have been a bit$h to get around as far as mounting a scope. I'll check my book.

Nice photo, thanks. I'll post some photos of my tung oil stain mix experiment soon. Perfect match. Yahoo!

Death to bad guys,

Robert/LB

[Lancebear]

Hey Jim,

Checked Nick's book. He states that only Winchester was considered for M1917 sniper production. In October 1918 they got a contract for sixty thousand but.....by January 1919 the contract was cancelled and a document exists that says 189 maybe were delivered. None are known. There is a scoped Eddystone in the Springfield museum, but is not configured like the 1918 sniper that was decided on. Nick also states that Senich has photos or mentions a scoped M1917 in two of his books. Shame there aren't several thousand surviving scoped Winchester '17 snipers floating around. Wonder what one would be worth if it existed?

Robert/LB

[Jim Tarleton]

They didn't use a scope. I found this picture while doing research on Pioneer Platoons. I have been breaking up the 5th and 6th Regiments down to Company size, each with their respective SOS groups by individual names. I discovered by chance that the Scout-Snipers called themselves SOS Units(from Scouts-Observers-Snipers). Officially they had another name.

Found a source of letters (museum) that mention combat actions that weren't censored for some reason (I read somewhere that Marine letters weren't censored). I have been trying to identify the exact number of SOS's in a Company, and from this picture, it appears to be 8, but several sources give conflicting numbers. Interesting, since there were only 17 riflemen to a Platoon. The Regimental level number was 28, but they were primarily used for Intel Scouting. It was Battalion level and Company level where the true Snipers resided.

I do get lucky sometimes. I found a source that mentioned two snipers from a specfic company being killed on a date when that Company was in Support. I checked the Company Roster, and found the names of the two men killed on that date. Thus I identified by name, two more Marine Scout Snipers. Sadly, the location of their graves is unknown.

The date given for this picture is obviously incorrect.

Jim

[Long Island]

LB,
Theres a photo of a scoped US Model 1917 in HG Houze book on Winchester B/A Military & Sporting Rifles designated the US Model 1918 Winchester Snipers Rifle or the later Model 1919 US Telescope Rifle. It also states that 59,742 were requested but only 189 actually produced.
Bob

[JGaynor]

LB,
Theres a photo of a scoped US Model 1917 in HG Houze book on Winchester B/A Military & Sporting Rifles designated the US Model 1918 Winchester Snipers Rifle or the later Model 1919 US Telescope Rifle. It also states that 59,742 were requested but only 189 actually produced.
Bob

Like this? From 1965 AR article.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../model1918.jpg

There is also an entry in Crowell (1919) stating that 42,607 "Sights, optics for Telescopic. Rifle Model 1918" were ordered from Eastman Kodak however none were delivered as of Feb 20, 1919.
Eastman Kodak was to be the lens subcontractor for the 1918 Scope. The scope itself was based on a Winchester design. There is no mention (in Crowell) of an order for the rest of scope. I suppose its possible a few hundred were put up for testing.
The very heavy brass adjustment knobs tended to break off after a few hundred rounds.
Except for the scope the rifle was way ahead of its time.

Regards,

Jim

[JGaynor]

Like this? From 1965 AR article.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../model1918.jpg

There is also an entry in Crowell (1919) stating that 42,607 "Sights, optics for Telescopic. Rifle Model 1918" were ordered from Eastman Kodak however none were delivered as of Feb 20, 1919.
Eastman Kodak was to be the lens subcontractor for the 1918 Scope. The scope itself was based on a Winchester design. There is no mention (in Crowell) of an order for the rest of scope. I suppose its possible a few hundred were put up for testing.
The very heavy brass adjustment knobs tended to break off after a few hundred rounds.
Except for the scope the rifle was way ahead of its time.

Regards,

Jim

CORRECTION : Upon rechecking I find that Winchester did in fact receive an order for 32,000 Model 1918 scopes to incoporate the above mentioned lenses. None were delivered by Feb 20, 1919.
A few experimental '03's were assembled with the M1918 as well.

Jim

[Embalmer]

collectors firearms had a winchester 1917 sniper for sale about a year or so back. if remember right had a hefty pricetag as well.