Savage No4Mk1*(T) Questions

[gsthreeeight]

Roger,

There is no serial number stamped on the forearm. Only the marks shown in the two images. Inside the forearm is a small stamped number "10" reading from front to rear on a raised portion of the wood in about the middle lengthwise.

Good clue.

[jmoore]

Look on the underside of the handguards and probably the fore stock for penciled numbers.

---------- Post added at 01:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:09 AM ----------

Oops, NOT the underside of the forestock, but in the barrel channel.

[Peter Laidler]

I could have answered Alans concerns in a quick email. I said what I said because until about 2 days after the book was published, I'd never seen a Savage Mk1*T and there wasn't another book available that I could crib from either. But then, if it was 'less telescope' (as most of them seem to be) then quite reasonably, I wouldn't have as a less tele rifle wouldn't have done the rounds at the sniper wing where I was an Armourer or indeed anywhere else in the Army system! In my defence too, the two most senior examiners at the biggest Base workshops hadn't seen one either and while their paper records showed thousands of C prefix rifles, none of them were T's. It was Sid Harvey who told me the reason for this small batch of 'foreign' (his words.....) rifles in the what they called 'the bunker'. They would strip them of Mk1backsights and foresight blades too in order to complete needy BSA rifles

Like I always say.......... and other would-be authors should BEWARE and take note. The first person to read your book always knows more than you because he immediately knows all that you've written PLUS the bit he knew before. And in the nicest way, what is learned afterwards

[gsthreeeight]

jmoore,

Both upper hand guards are Savage marked and have the last four digits of the SN penciled in underneath.

Only the forestock, barrel bands, barrel and, I just discovered, the rear sling swivel and swivel pad are NOT Savage marked.

I suspect the installation of the Canadian marked forestock will remain a mystery.

I'm still uncertain about who actually installed the Enfield barrels on the Savage "less scope" rifles. One of the two Savage No.4Mk1s shown in the Knowledge Library, SN 13C4529 (Mk1*), is marked 1942 and sports what appears to be a /42 Enfield barrel. The barrel on the other rifle, SN 0C160 (Mk1), is not shown.

I can only suppose that the random selection of available Savage rifles by H&H was the reason that my rifle, also a 1942, has a /45 barrel. But who installed it if not H&H? Were the complete Savage rifles or barreld actions sent out to have Enfield barrels installed?

Curiouser and curiouser.

[Peter Laidler]

Try not to complicate things. The answer is probably that after your rifle was sold on in the late 40's or early 50's, somebody probably shot-out the original 2 or 5 groove barrel and had a new or good second hand barrel put in. If it was an Armourer, then the barrel would have been fitted properly into the fore-end. Bearing correctly with the correct muzzle weights etc etc. I think that your rifle was rebarrelled in the UK after being shot out. The current fore-end looks to me (see pic 3) as though it has previously had a centre bedding pad fitted and scraped out.

H&H didn't select anything. They were sent complete rifles and told to convert them to T spec as cheaply and quickly as possible.

[Brian Dick]

No.4 Mk.1T 0C160 is mine and it has it's original six groove barrel as installed at Savage. I've had several other Savage Mk.1* rifles over the years as converted to "T" specification at H&H and all in near new condition, "less telescope" guise. All had British replacement, five groove barrels installed and marked /45 as the one above. The forends were numbered too during "T" conversion and one sported a British walnut forend. I remember reading somewhere, (Skennereton?), that some of the forend stocking up as original from Savage left allot to be desired and replacements were made as necessary. This must be true as I've encountered a few standard Savage No.4 rifles over the years that had bound barrels and had to be adjusted. The barrel replacements are a mystery if H&H didn't do it. Could they have been done at Enfield prior to shipment to H&H for conversion? Just where did these rifles land in England and where did selection take place for conversion to "T" specification. I'm guessing at Enfield? I appreciate Peter's hypothesis but why would the rifles be in newish condition with shot out barrels? Food for thought.

[Roger Payne]

Thanks Brian. That's food for thought. I too have seen a number of S Mk1* rifles now; generally the 'less scope' rifles, that have been rebarrelled with 5 groove 45 dated British barrels. We may never know for certain, & I'd agree with Peter that it's likely H&H had nothing to do with it, but the fact that there seems to be a number of them about, all similarly converted, does seem to suggest that there may have been something done officially. As you say, most of them are in original belting condition.

As an aside though, I can vouch for the fact that a few Mk1* rifles were completed with scopes. Dave T & I both have examples. Mine's 14C02XX & had scope 738X mated to it. Sady, the scope is no longer with the rifle. I also have a 'less scope' rifle s/n 12C93XX, & a 1941 Mk1 0C3XX. I used to own another scoped Mk1 serial 0C43XX but sold it on a year or two back......
all acquired too easily & fairly cheaply in the long ago days of plenty..............

ATB

[Hal O'Peridol]

I have often thought (pure conjecture, mind you) that the less telescope Savage MkI* Ts were pulled out of storage wherever they were in 1945, rebarreled at Enfield and prepped for the upcoming invasion of Japan, which fortunately, did not hapen.

One must remember at the time, if an invasion of the home islands had taken place, the cost in terms of men and material would have been staggering. And England, not having the vast resources of the US at hand, made do with what they had on hand.

[Brian Dick]

That's an excellent observation. I bought a quantity of Canadian 2nd Pattern Browning HiPower holsters at Hercules Surplus in Toronto many years ago that 1945 dated, NOS, had never been folded over. They were all marked TPL for the tropical treatment done to the canvas. The story was that they were building up supplies for the invasion of Japan and fortunately, they were never needed.

[Peter Laidler]

Good idea but if I can be the devils advocate............ Britain was not down to invade Japan but re-take Malaya from the west coast and by land from the North via India/Burma and the Malay islands from Singapore south. Not much sniping to be done in those areas in my experience