The M1 Carbine was so ineffective in Korea

[WarPig1976]

Not only does cold effect all things mechanical but it also effects the "potency" of smokeless powder. I have no opinion either way just pointing that out....

[imarangemaster]

I don't think anyone is disputing it's effectiveness in the jungles or Europe. It was good for what it was designed for. It met it's match in the bitter cold Korean winter. That's all anyone's saying and that is backed up by documented testimony by those that used them there. Disputing that by arguing apples to oranges is pointless. It is what it is.

Very True! Even the original AR15s (full auto model 601s) sucked in the cold weather tests, though there was some outright sabotage by Ordnance personal.

[vintage hunter]

What in particular are you referring to when you say the carbine met it's match in the bitter Korean cold?

[Aragorn243]

What in particular are you referring to when you say the carbine met it's match in the bitter Korean cold?

It failed in its intended purpose as an effective weapon as noted by the members of Fox Company, 1st Marine Division. This particular time/place/combination of events was a time when this weapon systems use had to be altered or replaced by another weapon to get the job down of bringing down the enemy force.

[shadycon]

A little note on cold weather and firearms; I remember reading or hearing on a documentary about the Germans on the Russian front during WWII. The Germans weapons froze because of the extreme cold , but the Russians did not have this problem. The reason given was they did not oil their weapons. Being youst to the cold conditions they used a mixture of oil and gasoline or diesel fuel [don't remember which]. This kept the oil from getting 'thick' and gummy from the sub zero temp..As said I don't remember all the details. GK

[vintage hunter]

Before you altogether condemn it based on the experiences of a few related in a book written years after the fact I suggest you get in some trigger time with the carbine. I think you'll find that overall it's a fine weapon that did it's job very well as long as it's limitations weren't exceeded. I have no doubts that there were isolated incidents where it failed to perform as expected but it was probably due to it being used in a roll it wasn't intended for. The carbine is not a tack driving powerhouse, and this has always lead to false accusations that it is weak, under powered, inaccurate, and lacks stopping power by those who for the most part have little or no experience with them. Try it before you knock it.
Shadycon, I have read and heard the same thing about weapons freezing. Mostly from US veterans of WWII and the Battle of the Bulge in particular. According to them it was a major undertaking to keep the weapons working. Moisture and lubricants freezing were the most common causes of weapons being rendered inoperable.

[WarPig1976]

Lots of Intel briefings on the web site "Lone Sentry" of all sorts of stuff. One I read said the Russians used diesel as engine coolant!! Also one or two on weapons lube in extreme cold, or the absence of. Check the site out guys LOTS of interesting information for fellows like us....

I was wrong it was the Germans,, so sue me! I drive a truck for a living...



AXIS USE OF DIESEL OIL FOR ANTI-FREEZE
At temperatures running to 30 degrees below zero F. and lower, glycerine-water and glycol-water mixtures are useless as anti-freeze agents. Although two other agents, methanol and ethanol, have too low a boiling point and evaporate quickly, Axis forces reportedly used ethanol-water mixtures on the eastern front last winter.

It has been reported that the German Army, as a result of satisfactory experiments, used diesel oil as a coolant last winter. Since this oil has a lower coefficient of heat conductivity than water, the operating temperature of the engine will be raised--an advantage in extreme cold weather. While the oil is destructive to natural rubber joints, synthetic rubber is immune. Troubles may arise from corrosion, particularly in the radiator, because of a growth of acidity in the oil. At first the oil may be commercially pure, but the addition of moisture and dirt, together with the churning of the water pump, may crack the oil until acids accumulate to a harmful extent. Rust from the cylinder jacket may be present and, together with the emulsified oil, cause trouble. Such acids may attack copper and aluminum. The rising viscosity of the oil may cause mechanical troubles such as pump-shaft shearing or vane breaking.

[WarPig1976]

The Russians lubricated all their weapons with oil of a specially thin arctic type, and recoil mechanisms were also filled with a special liquid. Water-cooled jackets of machine guns were filled with glycerin. All lubricants used were said to be proof down to at least -50 degrees Centigrade (-58 degrees Fahrenheit). Small arms which gummed up were first wiped entirely dry, lubricated with kerosene, and then fired, before receiving normal lubrication.

I pulled this paragraph from a report from one sector on winter fighting on the Eastern front.

[imarangemaster]

It failed in its intended purpose as an effective weapon as noted by the members of Fox Company, 1st Marine Division. This particular time/place/combination of events was a time when this weapon systems use had to be altered or replaced by another weapon to get the job down of bringing down the enemy force.

I read an in depth study on Korean War complaints about the carbine a number of years ago, a study that showed that as a rule, the carbine "failures" were because they were shooting at the human waves at 300 yards, and using untrained full auto fire. As far as Carbine "freezing," M1 Garands and BARs also suffered from the freezing of the oils at the same rate, and guys would pee on their weapons to thaw them.

As far as M1 Carbine being a "pistol round" The M1 Carbine has more energy at 100 yards than a 357 at the muzzle. Untold hundreds of thousands of combatants in three wars have bit the dust from the Carbine. I am not saying it is an assault rifle, but it is a PDW. Heck an HK P90 PDW in 5.7mm has a fraction of the Carbines utility, and no one thinks of bashing it!

[Aragorn243]

Before you altogether condemn it based on the experiences of a few related in a book written years after the fact I suggest you get in some trigger time with the carbine.

I'm not condemning the rifle at all. I'm simply pointing out a known issue based upon the experience of the men that were there that some here want to deny happened or they wish to pile excuse after excuse on as to why this should not count, a few calling it a "myth". It is not a myth, it happened.

Stating fact is not condemnation. It has an outstanding reputation in every other theater of war it was utilized in and is obviously loved by those that own it.