Gun show carbines

[DaveHH]

That little 5.6 had one more hurdle to get over to be recognized. It had a real odd ball ordnance ball on the gas cylinder. I put it out there and it was immediately thrown under the bus. "Never seen one like that" "Humped" Blah, Blah. Marty Black just told me it was an oddball marking that's all. And in the last CC copy Marty sent out showed a photo of the mark and asked anyone who had one like it to let them know. After a few months up popped the devil, several were out there, identical to the one on my gun. One guy, I forget who it was PM'd me to let me know it was legit and there was proof now. That gun had scratch marks around the front sight where someone had put one of those ugly flash hiders on it and scratched the area good and proper. In those days a lot of people used front sight scratches as proof that it had been tampered with. Why anyone would go to the trouble to remove a type 3 band and then replace it with a type 2 instead of a type 1 eludes me. Most didn't even know that Winchester assembled guns AFTER they were finished so every Winchester has some scratches around the front sight.

The only calm and sensible person on these posts was Seth who always said everything was faked. One work responses "Fake".

Just remembered to address this from Charlie's post. When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

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[painter777]

When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

This is a big part of the reason I look for wear patterns 'BEFORE' a Carbine is Detail cleaned. I documented one here for all to see with pictures being taken as I tore it down.

See my replies from #23 to #38.
#38 Shows the Recoil plate impression Dave and I are talking about.
I've tried to remove the Butt plate on this one about 3 times. I wasn't able to remove and stopped trying, afraid of scarring it or damaging it.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=38393&page=3

[tenOC]

That little 5.6 had one more hurdle to get over to be recognized. It had a real odd ball ordnance ball on the gas cylinder. I put it out there and it was immediately thrown under the bus. "Never seen one like that" "Humped" Blah, Blah. Marty Black just told me it was an oddball marking that's all. And in the last CC copy Marty sent out showed a photo of the mark and asked anyone who had one like it to let them know. After a few months up popped the devil, several were out there, identical to the one on my gun. One guy, I forget who it was PM'd me to let me know it was legit and there was proof now. That gun had scratch marks around the front sight where someone had put one of those ugly flash hiders on it and scratched the area good and proper. In those days a lot of people used front sight scratches as proof that it had been tampered with. Why anyone would go to the trouble to remove a type 3 band and then replace it with a type 2 instead of a type 1 eludes me. Most didn't even know that Winchester assembled guns AFTER they were finished so every Winchester has some scratches around the front sight.

The only calm and sensible person on these posts was Seth who always said everything was faked. One work responses "Fake".

Just remembered to address this from Charlie's post. When you have a recoil plate that is original to a stock, they are almost glued into the wood. They are very hard to remove and there are minute milling marks on top. These marks transfer directly to the wood of the stock and the initial application of linseed oil preserves them forever. It is a fingerprint.

Dave, a lot of us gave you a hard time about it because you used to rant in a way to put other people down in their enjoyment of the hobby, so we gave it back to you.
It was earned.

[DaveHH]

Dave, a lot of us gave you a hard time about it because you used to rant in a way to put other people down in their enjoyment of the hobby, so we gave it back to you.
It was earned.

You got that right. I was a Royal Pain in the A$$ about part swapping. It finally got through my thick skull that these people were just doing what they wanted with their possessions. I predicted that all of these corrected guns would someday be out on the market with no one the wiser. The standard reply was " When I sell them, I'll put all of the old stuff back on them". Well that didn't happen, but it's none of my business anyway.

[tenOC]

You got that right. I was a Royal Pain in the A$$ about part swapping. It finally got through my thick skull that these people were just doing what they wanted with their possessions. I predicted that all of these corrected guns would someday be out on the market with no one the wiser. The standard reply was " When I sell them, I'll put all of the old stuff back on them". Well that didn't happen, but it's none of my business anyway.

Honestly, I didn't believe the barrel proof was legit at the same time. And today, there is still so much I and we don't know. On swapping, it was my goal to drive people into the open doing it, instead of driving them into the shadows hiding it. We still figure out who the people doing it are, or at least which Carbines are worked over regardless of how open they are about it's condition when they got it.
After all this time I don't build much anymore. There are a few pieces that just need a stock or something but they're unique enough that I leave the probable wrong stock on them.

I have IP stuff in mid project and an M1A1 or 2. Still have an S'G' receiver from GB that has flip staking I bought to build. It's a lost cause, probably.

[DaveHH]

Honestly, I didn't believe the barrel proof was legit at the same time.

You're in good company because BQ hadn't seen one either. Marty looked at it more logically: Why would an obviously Winchester made barrel on a Winchester carbine have some honkie looking fake ordnance stamp? No stamp at all was better than that one. Marty was right and they came out of the woodwork. He knew that there were several different dies in use all different in some slight way, why not another? He worked with me on a Winchester he had that was close, maybe 100 guns off mine and it was quite a bit different. When there are 1000 guns a day being built, chances are real good that lots of people are doing a lot of different things. And hundreds of thousands of parts in those bins.

---------- Post added at 11:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 PM ----------

When I started this thread I had high hopes of correcting one of my two carbines back to it's org. WW-2 configuration, kinda like a before and after, BUT, when I started looking for the org. parts it would take to do this right and the asking price: Type 1 barrel band 175-$250, org. flip sight $200, front sight $90- $100 plus the tools required: front sight remove and install $50, rear sight remove and install $50 and that's not counting the small items like mag. release and safety.

I looked at it in another way: Why remove later much improved parts to be replaced with parts that don't work as well and may be worn out? I share your views on the carbine. I recall always seeing the same VC tax collector in his hammock by the bridge. With his carbine. He'd wave to us and we'd wave back. A lighter more handy weapon is hard to find. Love your split window.

[browningautorifle]

I looked at it in another way: Why remove later much improved parts to be replaced with parts that don't work as well and may be worn out?

Valid point, but much overlooked or un-thought of by collectors.