No. 4 Mk. 1 (T) Value

[aqbill]

I have recently purchased a No. 4 Mk. 1 (T) made by BSA Shirley in 1943. Unfortunately, it has no scope or mount but does have the staked pads. It appears to be in original condition and I know its provenance since the 1950s - it belonged to my late father-in-law. All matching - even the magazine - so far as I can tell without pulling it apart, and the bore is bright and bold. Could you give me an idea of its value? I'm probably not going to sell it but rather have Brian Dick fit a reproduction mount and, perhaps, I can find a scope out there, too. Thanks for your time and interest.

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[limpetmine]

I would venture a swag of around $1,000 to $1,400, if it is in firing condition. Is the "Z" part of a "ZF" ? If so, much less.

[aqbill]

I would venture a swag of around $1,000 to $1,400, if it is in firing condition. Is the "Z" part of a "ZF" ? If so, much less.

Fortunately, the "Z" stands alone!

[Peter Laidler]

Not fortunately but very UN fortunately for you because it indicates that the rifle has been examined and is suffering from a defect that can only be put right at a Base Workshop that has pretty well the full factory facilities. Sorry to be the bringer of bad tidings but that's the way the mop flops as they say. I'd say that the barrel is worn out/scrap and fails some critical gauge limit or fails the CHS due to a worn body. But I could be wrong

Once it got to the Base Workshop (the Z part....) the senior examiner would look, examine, gauge and then decide its fate............................

[Badger]

Here's a few links to other threads where Peter and others have discussed the pitfalls of DP and ZF marked rifles ...

ZF marking on Enfields?

DP Stock Marks Query

DP Rifles

Please read them all thoroughly before you go and shoot it ...

Regards,
Doug

[aqbill]

OK Guys. I certainly do not want this exploding in my face if there's a good possibility something's wrong. Could I send this to Mr. Dick and have him do a thorough check-up? Or, if not him, is anyone else capable of making sure it is or is not in working order! I must say that I'm a bit surprised that this would have been exported for resale by the Brits in the 1950s I'm guessing...but I suppose times were somewhat different then. Thank heavens I have a good "T" barreled action that I can drop in - if necessary - and make a interesting shooter out of it which is what was wanted anyway. Cheers and thanks for all your help!

[Brian Dick]

Bill, I'll be glad to check it over for you. I have a 1943 "T" in my personal collection that's ZF because the body is worn in the bolt runway. It was last rebuilt in 1954-55 and has had four telescopes fitted during it's service career. It can still be fired with care but I don't anymore as I have others that are still in spec to draw from. Remember that the No.4T was in service well into the 1970's. Rifles with problems like yours and mine were culled and surplused onto the civilian market when they failed MoD inspection. I wouldn't dare tear it apart and rebuild it with your other barreled action. It still has historical significance and that would be destroyed if you do that. Collectors aren't the Army and it's doubtful that the kind of service we're giving them will ever hurt them, (or us). Chances are it's still safe to fire as long as it's checked out properly and the problem isolated beforehand. Brian

[Peter Laidler]

If the rifle was unfit to fire, generally speaking, it'd have Z-UF on the butt. That doesn't indicate Zaire United Forces either........ I saw a good example of this the other day with an SA80 LSW that had a split/banana barrel at the muzzle end. Of course it CHS'd and gauged perfectly but was clearly Z for a Base Workshop examination, then a barrel change after a close examination. Some wag had painted Z-UF on the side - as if it wasn't obvious..........! But on a serious note, unless you have the gauges, the experience and know how, the reason for the what we used to call the 'casting mark' is not always apparent.

Added later....... Brian's right too about the No4T going on into the 70's. The RAF Regiment snipers (why RAF snipers, heaven knows......) would attend the sniper courses with No4T's well into the 70's - up until 1975 I's hazzard a guess at. On the live firing part of the course they'd use the L42's. But the No4T's were around for some time

[bigduke6]

Just wonder if its worth it, and if its ok with aqbill, to archive the pic somewhere, just gives others an idea of what the "Z" looks like etc, maybe start compiling the pics in a sticky, and some brief outline of what and why they are there, so when the next Z appears we could point them to the thread.

[aqbill]

Taking more pictures would be fine with me if anyone's interested. My local gunsmith is going to check the headspace with go & no-go gauges and give her a good look-see. If he can't find anything I'm passing it along to Brian Dick for his ministrations. He - and Peter Laidler - have already helped me a great deal. Two thumbs up for them both! Three No.4 Mk.1s and a No.5 Mk.1...can a No.1 Mk.III be far behind. An then of course there's my sailing chum that has a heavy barreled No.1 Mk.III Lithgow with Aussie receiver target sights that he shot at Bisley in the mid-50s while working on his doctorate in metallurgy. He said that London University gave him a "half-purple" for that one when they defeated Oxford... It's a wonderful life.