No. 5 Mk I, 'Jungle Carbine' 1945.

[TCC002]

I Recently purchesed a No. 5 Mk I, 'Jungle Carbine', at a local gun show today. I have been looking at them for a while, and have done a small amount of research on them. Once I got it home I decided to take it apart, and take a few pictures of it.
I am curious about a few things. Mostly, if anyone knows how to read the symbols on the bottom of the barrel, and has information on what they mean. It did seem odd to me, that the 'stampings' or 'markings', were on the bottom of the barrel. I was under the impression that they would be on the top part of the barrel under the forearm piece. Also some parts are stamped 47, and the bolt number does not match the rifle, so I realize this carbine is not parts matching. Other than numbers not matching, it seems to run flawlessly.

Additionally, the gentlemen I bought the rifle from gave me an extra magazine. I believe it goes to a no. 1 mk III?

Again thanks for any help.

Information

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[scoobsean]

M47C indicates the Shirley factory of Birmingham Small Arms (BSA) and has nothing to do with the date.

[Parashooter]

I struggle to appreciate the drive to understand meanings of the many inspection and manufacturing marks that appear on some classic military arms. Most, after all, were simply stamped to indicate one or more stages of manufacture had been completed, inspected, or viewed - and sometimes by whom performed. Most have no bearing on the quality or utility of the arm and are pretty inconsequential from a utilitarian or historical perspective. A few, like the "M47C" identified above, provide interesting information. For the vast majority of small, usually-hidden markings, I don't get it. Why do we need to know about the ones with no apparent value? (This is a sincere question, not a rant.)

The extra magazine is indeed from an SMLE. The extent of the impressed grooves is a distinctive characteristic, as are the more-complex latch features at the back.

[Peter Laidler]

I'll just cut to the quick. You have a bog standard run of work BSA made No5 rifle. The marks are all various stage inspector markings marking its stages through its production by BSA. The marks beginning S, M, N indicate the various makes of many of the component parts.

Just make sure that you coat the body and barrel where it is hidden by the woodwork with liberal coating of thick grease before you put it together. Make sure someone who knows what he's doing ascertains that the bolt FITS and bears correctly and operates correctly too.

[TCC002]

Thank you for the information.

[Seaspriter]

I struggle to appreciate the drive to understand meanings of the many inspection and manufacturing marks that appear on some classic military arms. Most, after all, were simply stamped to indicate one or more stages of manufacture had been completed, inspected, or viewed - and sometimes by whom performed. Most have no bearing on the quality or utility of the arm and are pretty inconsequential from a utilitarian or historical perspective. A few, like the "M47C" identified above, provide interesting information. For the vast majority of small, usually-hidden markings, I don't get it. Why do we need to know about the ones with no apparent value? (This is a sincere question, not a rant.)

While many may wonder about the almost obsessive interest in these codes, for some guns, like the Jungle Carbine or Snipers, there are many fakes out there. One of the means of separating the fakes from the real deal are these codes.

[Peter Laidler]

I disagree for the most part Seaspriter. The fakes and bitzers have a large quantity of marked parts because the parts are available as spares. In any case, these parts are made all over the place. And down to earth Armourers like me just use the next suitable part on the shelf or tray. Like parashooter says, for the most part they're just passing stage inspectors or examiners marks. Experience will tell you what you have. You don't really need an MG badge to tell you that the car is an MG and Lucas parts were used on MANY cars - just like M47 marked parts were used on many weapons. Just my view of course.

The point is that we've had a LOT of these '.....what's this mark(s) stuff lately and the answer is always the same

[Seaspriter]

Experience will tell you what you have.

Ah, yes, so true -- and that's the rub. We are in two different leagues. You are a master professional with years of experience, an eagle's eye, and the ability to sense the most minute detail, knowing when something is amiss. In this arena, you have forgotten more than I will ever learn.

On the other hand, I am a rank amateur, more ignorant than knowledgeable, more discoverer than sage. I lack the insight, the experience, and the intuition you have developed.

So how does one like me spot the real thing versus the worked over artifact versus the fake and fraud?

One of the ways is to understand the "codes." For example, you have been very direct, explicit, and unequivocal about the codes DP, ZF, and EY. I can think of several occasions where I saw an interesting gun, but it carried the DP code. I walked away. You may have saved me from serious injury. I was also able to warn a friend that his 1942 Long Branch was stamped in eight places with DP and should never be shot. (Turned out it wasn't from the Dublin Police, but had a seriously bulged barrel -- knowing the codes may have saved him from serious injury).

In another example, I bought a beautiful Enfield in great condition at a very low price strictly because it carried the code FTR, and I knew immediately what that meant. I consider it one of the best Enfields I own.

In another situation, the codes weren't letters but physical characteristics. I've seen a large number of Jungle Carbines being sold as "authentic" but they were really No.4 conversions. Knowing the lightening cuts, knox forms, and hollow bolt handle configuration "codes" saved me from getting ripped off.

On other posts, I've seen requests for our Milsurps mates to evaluate a Sniper being offered for sale on gun auction sites. I'd look at that gun on the auction site thinking: "that looks like a beauty to me." Then other members, quantum times more knowledgeable than I, would pick it apart as a fake. How did they know? They picked off clues that were subtle and indistinguishable to my ignorant eye.

So, one of the ways for us to learn the imperceptible queues is to know the letter and physical codes.

And what's also fascinating to me as an amateur historian is to recognize that all those codes actually have history, meaning and significance -- they give us a multi-dimensional and fascinating story of the battles, the travels, the standards, and the origin of these wonderful rifles. It never fails to amaze me how a rifle like the Lee Enfield can be so kaleidoscopic in all it's intricacies, as your thousands of posts on this site attest. (BTW, thank you for being so generous with your time and wisdom).

Robert

[Roger Payne]

It's horses for courses. Some people like to know about these things & some aren't bothered. Call it a thirst for knowledge on the OP's part!

[Peter Laidler]

Yep, agreed DRP. But only sooooo far. Where and when approx it was made, when and if identifiable - which they are, where the parts came from. But really....., what earthly use is it to know that a letter M over a small B-3 relates to Gerald Sniffwaite who was a temporary inspector during the absence of Arthur Brockbank. Gerald was the son of the Church organist at St Ethelreds church at nearby Aston and both sang in the gospel choir at Smethwick while he wasn't working the night shift at BSA. His team manager was........

So far as we know and unless someone reads the archives of BSA, stored at the Birmingham museum of Science and Technology, this info is lost. Likewise the list of Enfield examiners and 'travelling' examiners is also lost forever. Travelling examiners....... Those allocated to outside contractors such as H&H and ROF Theale on a semi permanent basis or those who travelled between sub contractors batch examining parts produced by them prior to being sent on to the gathering points for distribution to the main assembly factories.

Imagine writing a book with a list of all the examiners marks alongside a pen portrait of the man it related to............