Speed-Lee markings

[Jc5]

Posting pics on behalf of the owner.

[Jc5]

I'm re-posting owner's pics from earlier in the thread, for convenience.

EnfieldNutt, can you please send over some pics of:
butt plate and trapdoor
front sight
magazine (detached from rifle)
the original nose cap that you removed
the other butt stock (it may be the correct one)
the butt swivel (from each butt stock)

Thanks!

Some initial observations:
I don't see a Sold Out of Service mark---I don't think the S on the buttstock is one, at least not pertaining to this rifle. I don't think this is the correct buttstock for this rifle, certainly not with the Canadian mark. Earlier, you said that there was an "elongated flag shaped marking" on the buttstock, attached to a number 1. I think you must be referring to the Broad Arrow (between the UV and number 1). The broad arrow is a common mark of British government ownership, but I don't believe this is the correct butt for this rifle, so it doesn't tell us much, except that some private owner replaced the butt with a surplus one. This also means that the UV stamp is also irrelevant to this rifle (although I still wish I knew what it stood for).

You said there was a Sold Out of Service mark on the nosecap--the original nosecap, I take it---so we should examine that. It could also be a surplus part, maybe from a .22 trainer. If this rifle was actually in service, and then sold out of service, we would see other marks on the barrel or action. Let's see the other butt and nose cap, and we can compare those.

You said that "the buttstock has the BSA logo on the bottom of it." Where is that? Is it the logo with three piled rifles, or did you mean the Canadian marking that you drew? It would be an easy mistake, because the thing inside the big C looks like the BSA piled arms, but it's actually a broad arrow.

You wrote: "i cannot see any BM logo unless its the cursive one under the crown". This one, at least, is easy. From your drawings (which are quite good, BTW!), this looks like either a Birmingham provisional proof mark or the provisional/definitive proof mark. In either case, it's a commercial proof that would be found on a BSA commercial rifle of the period.

From all the marks and comparisons with others, I still think this is a No.3 Trade Pattern, made between 1904 and 1914, and it is unlikely that it was ever in government service....unless with some outfit in Ethiopia. More likely a private purchase, exported to Ethiopia--not part of a contract. (It probably saw some adventures in private hands though).

Maybe someone can run the Ethiopian marks by someone fluent?

[EnfieldNutt84]

Thanks for the info, I dont have time at the moment to respond to all of it but I think I was taking the small arrow head looking marking as an out of service, below the 1 and above the UV on the butt plate, interestingly enough I found out the U most likely means Union of South Africa, and the V is Volunteer, the 5 circles may be tours of service or years in service. My guess is the original owner replaced the wood and swapped over the metal work as most butts are sold as a wood stock, then swivel screw set, bolt, buttplate and screws so this is my guess, that the buttplate is original and swapped over, I will take the other pictures later today and yes it sure is a LB logo on the bottom of the Buttstock, the S means size small buttstock (which is nice because she doubles as a Bantam 303 in the family so to speak). Its more or less in a way a youth size number four, I just wish i could find another one, add the 10 round mag and cut out notches for stripper clips, and she would be up to par in that regard with the big ones, tho it would be a sinful "yee-haw" I guess (need to find a sporterized one).

[EnfieldNutt84]

What would be a correct sling? Im tempted to get a 1907 style but im not sure if these came across from America, although I suppose the whole Civilian purchase, then possibly voluntary service with the owner as the 20th century got rocky, perhaps it resisted the Italians.

[EnfieldNutt84]

Wouldn't it make sense in this theory of a volunteer soldier's rifle make sense then that there would be no out of service marking then?

[Amatikulu]

Research Gideon Force and its role in the East African Campaign of WW2. Your rifle may well have been supplied to the Ethiopian Patriot forces as they were fighting with the British and would have needed ammunition commonality with the .303.

[Surpmil]

Looks like it's the BSA commercial "No3. Trade Pattern" carbine.

[Jc5]

Amatikulu, thanks for the tip! Lots of info on Gideon Force online , but precious few photos anywhere! Like EnfieldNutt said, perhaps the carbine resisted the Italians! I would certainly like to think so!

...

EnfieldNutt...can you please send the additional photos requested? The original nosecap and the other butt especially. We still want to solve the mystery, and need to see the original pieces.

Thanks!

As for slings...there is no correct sling for this rifle. Just use any sling that dates from 1904 - 1914 if you want to stay in period.

You wrote: "Wouldn't it make sense in this theory of a volunteer soldier's rifle make sense then that there would be no out of service marking then?"

There would be no "Sold Out of Service" mark, because this rifle was never officially in British service. But there may be some confusion about the word "volunteer." There is the informal sense of the term, which can mean...well, anything. An irregular perhaps. An Indiana Jones adventurer leading Ethiopians against Mussolini's fascist troops in Abyssinia...whatever you wish to imagine. The stuff of pulp fantasy, and a few real-life eccentrics.

However, there is also "Volunteer" in the more formal sense. This would be the part-time, civilian soldier movement that served in Britain from 1859 to 1907. When you hear folks talk about "Volunteer pattern rifles" and so on, this is what they mean. Many of these commercial rifles were used by the British Volunteer officers. Marksmen of the various Volunteer units were influential in the the evolution of marksmanship in Britain.

For an introduction to this topic, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunte...eat_Britain%29.

There's a scholarly book on the subject: "RIFLEMEN FORM" by Ian Beckett.

[EnfieldNutt84]

Im going to send over some additional pictures, appreciate all of the info, I was reading about the Gideon Force last night, outstanding. Ive been toying with a book project Im writing, a based on true stories kind of fiction based on an RN warship, main conflicts occur around Africa and Italian Semoliland, so coincidentally this knowledge may prove twice as useful, many thanks to all who have contributed, this will be fun to continue to explore.

[TerryS]

Thre second symbol under the crown looks like the numeral "70" Their calendar is offset from ours by -7 years. But 1877 is too early and 1977 is too late.