'03 Springfield Picture of the Day

[High Plaines Doug r]

You completely misunderstood my statement, and I have no idea who Ward Churchill is, nor do I care.

I also fought with black men, and we left no one behind, living or dead. All Marines are Marine Green.

The word "behind" does not appear in my statement - what have you been sniffing?

Jim

Good job avoiding my question.
I asked if "left behind" is what you ment, as I apparently don't understand what you are trying to say, as in: "...put on the front line and left (as in RVN)."

Doug

[Jim Tarleton]

No need to avoid answering your question, since it had nothing to do with what I said.

But - the answer is "No', that is not what I meant. Just for the sake of clarity, in WWI, all AEF combat troops were rotated from the trench lines on a regular schedule, with one battalion on the front lines, one in reserve, and the third in support (at rest) in the rear. It was an effort to reduce combat fatique in the trenches (a problem the French experienced early in the war). I think the rotation period was 10 days (front to support, support to reserve, and reserve to front), but it might have been a little more or less. In RVN, as in WWII and Korea, troops were "left" on the front lines for extended periods of time. Since RVN had flowing front lines, I probably should have referenced WWII or Korea, but my only personal experience was RVN.

Does that help?

Jim

[Fredtheobviouspseudonym]

"Lost Battalions" explains this very well.

The evil Republican leaders in Congress (er, excuse me, Southern Democrats) did not want to see ANY African-American troops in the front lines -- their honorable service would have pointed out the shame and disgrace of the Jim Crow laws prevalent in the South (and the less-obvious but also-nasty ongoing discrimination in the North.) This would have been a major step towards giving African-Americans equal rights.

That's why Pershing did NOT want to put Black troops on the line -- he gave the 359th and 361st Regiments to the French on the understanding that they would only see service in low-intensity combat in quiet sectors.

However, the French had other ideas and came to prize the African-American troops for their determination and combat ability. IIRC the Senegalese troops did a good deal to train their very distant cousins.

The African-American 92nd Division was in Pershing's command. He had it officered with whites from the Deep South who had nothing but contempt for their African-American enlisted men. Moreover it was at the very back of the list for equipment and training time.

As you might imagine it failed in its first attack in the Meuse-Argonne. Going over the top with almost NO artillery support is dumb in any fight and especially so in WW One. Nonetheless the unit did regroup, repeated the attack and gained ground.

However, the initial failure was exactly what Pershing and other generals wanted. They used this to contend after Nov. 1918 that NO African-American could make a decent soldier and that even the long-standing and storied African-American regiments should be made into service troops. That's why the 9th and 10th Cavalry regiments were off the front lines early in WW II. I don't remember whether they were disbanded or not.

By contrast, Teddy Roosevelt had had other ideas. When he was lobbying for a Rough Rider division in 1917 he planned to have one brigade of infantry as similar to the makeup of his old Rough Riders -- Westerners, Native Americans, and various Ivy-League graduates. The other infantry brigade (two per division in the 1917 TOE) was to be all African-American and commanded by Charles Young.

Charles Young was black. So Teddy would have had half of his infantry strength as African-American and commanded by a black officer.

Wilson shot this down.

[Jim Tarleton]

Wilson's action does not surprise me one bit. TR's action does.

Jim

[High Plaines Doug r]

No need to avoid answering your question, since it had nothing to do with what I said.

But - the answer is "No', that is not what I meant. Just for the sake of clarity, in WWI, all AEF combat troops were rotated from the trench lines on a regular schedule, with one battalion on the front lines, one in reserve, and the third in support (at rest) in the rear. It was an effort to reduce combat fatique in the trenches (a problem the French experienced early in the war). I think the rotation period was 10 days (front to support, support to reserve, and reserve to front), but it might have been a little more or less. In RVN, as in WWII and Korea, troops were "left" on the front lines for extended periods of time. Since RVN had flowing front lines, I probably should have referenced WWII or Korea, but my only personal experience was RVN.

Does that help?

Jim

Yes Jim,
That clarifies my misinterpretation of your post. I apologize for my outburst.

Doug

[Jim Tarleton]

Not a problem, Doug. I should have been more clear in my original statement. I should not have expected everyone to know about WWI troop rotations. I had a friend read just my original post and he had the same reaction as you did. I need to be more vigilant about how I word my posts. I suspect you were not the only one who misinterpreted my meaning.

Thanks,

Jim

PS
Where were you in RVN? I was in I Corps, west of Danang in the mountains. I was on a series of firebases.

[High Plaines Doug r]

I have found the electronically printed word to be an imperfect medium, for myself as well.
I served with the 1st Cav in III corps mostly: After we got back from Cambodia, our rear was the firebases supporting Song Be and Tay Ninh.

Doug

[Calif-Steve]

I served in RVN and no troops, white, black or green were put in the front and "left". Units rotated into and out of the field on regular schedules. Sorry, but that is true.

[Jim Tarleton]

Tell that to the 26th Marines at Khe Sanh (Operation Scotland 1 Nov 1967 - 31 Mar 1968).

Except for two brief stays in the hospital at China Beach, I never left my outpost, although we did move the outpost twice (deeper into the valley). I never took R&R, although many did. I would assume it depended on your unit and service. As I said previously, RVN didn't really have a front line so to speak, so I did use a bad example. On the positive side, we each knew when we would be leaving country from Day 1, which in retrospect, probably wasn't a good idea militarily. We kept loosing our most experienced guys.

Jim

[High Plaines Doug r]

I served in RVN and no troops, white, black or green were put in the front and "left". Units rotated into and out of the field on regular schedules. Sorry, but that is true.

"Regular schedules"
My company was to rotate back to a FSB every 4 weeks with the other companies in the battalion. That rotation was dependent upon the other 3 companies being "field strength". That happened for us, on average, every 3 months. We did get to ride a slick to a FSB, re-supply, including new clothes and boots every month or so, then back out to the field, in a different place, so that probably counts as a rotation. Could have been 1 mile away, could have been 20 miles away, I didn't know the difference.
Just glad the Arty and Arc-lights strikes I hid from were our own.

Doug