+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Cartridges II

Click here to increase the font size Click here to reduce the font size
  1. #1
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 10:37 AM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,956
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    11-01-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 AM

    Cartridges II

    I've started another thread on them as the other one as some of the pics by myself and RCS are not opening up for some reason.

    Anyway I'd like some assistance with these two that I found in my wildcats lot (Not supposed to be there).
    The H/S is MF = Munitions Footscray
    73 - 1973
    7.62
    F3

    The F3 and the black primer has me stumped what do these both mean is the black primer a proof loading!
    As always I appreciate the help by the members here.
    Information
    Warning: This is a relatively older thread
    This discussion is older than 360 days. Some information contained in it may no longer be current.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0636.jpg‎
Views:	147
Size:	1.22 MB
ID:	128672  

  2. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:

    RCS

  3. # ADS
    Friends and Sponsors
    Join Date
    October 2006
    Location
    Milsurps.Com
    Posts
    All Threads
    A Collector's View - The SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield 1903-1989. It is 300 8.5x11 inch pages with 1,000+ photo’s, most in color, and each book is serial-numbered.  Covering the SMLE from 1903 to the end of production in India in 1989 it looks at how each model differs and manufacturer differences from a collecting point of view along with the major accessories that could be attached to the rifle. For the record this is not a moneymaker, I hope just to break even, eventually, at $80/book plus shipping.  In the USA shipping is $5.00 for media mail.  I will accept PayPal, Zelle, MO and good old checks (and cash if you want to stop by for a tour!).  CLICK BANNER to send me a PM for International pricing and shipping. Manufacturer of various vintage rifle scopes for the 1903 such as our M73G4 (reproduction of the Weaver 330C) and Malcolm 8X Gen II (Unertl reproduction). Several of our scopes are used in the CMP Vintage Sniper competition on top of 1903 rifles. Brian Dick ... BDL Ltd. - Specializing in British and Commonwealth weapons Specializing in premium ammunition and reloading components. Your source for the finest in High Power Competition Gear. Here at T-bones Shipwrighting we specialise in vintage service rifle: re-barrelling, bedding, repairs, modifications and accurizing. We also provide importation services for firearms, parts and weapons, for both private or commercial businesses.
     

  4. #2
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 06:59 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    30,402
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    10-31-2024
    Local Time
    04:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by CINDERS View Post
    the black primer has me stumped
    Well, here's what I found but it bothers me. I never imagined seeing one...read for yourself, the black primers supposedly mean loaded with sugar and used for bandoleer testing. Here's some reading for you.

    Nato Ball Round with black primer - #5 by captainT - General Ammunition Discussion - International Ammunition Association Web Forum
    Last edited by browningautorifle; 10-30-2022 at 08:49 PM.
    Regards, Jim

  5. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to browningautorifle For This Useful Post:


  6. Avoid Ads - Become a Contributing Member - Click HERE
  7. #3
    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,395
    Real Name
    Robert Seccombe
    Local Date
    10-31-2024
    Local Time
    06:12 PM

    early New Zealand 7,62 head stamp

    Do not know if this is common or not, but found a early 1960 New Zealandicon head stamp - how this is correct ?



    Also in response to the black primers: I have some US F A 49 AP 30 cal with a black primer.

    In 1949 US Ordnance started testing non corrosive primers and used a black color primer

  8. The Following 2 Members Say Thank You to RCS For This Useful Post:


  9. #4
    Advisory Panel browningautorifle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last On
    Today @ 06:59 PM
    Location
    Victoria BC
    Posts
    30,402
    Real Name
    Jim
    Local Date
    10-31-2024
    Local Time
    04:12 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by RCS View Post
    In 1949 US Ordnance started testing non corrosive primers and used a black color primer
    The whole idea of that statement of it being sugar loaded...with what appears to be a standard primer(black)...is so strange. Someone must have more.
    Regards, Jim

  10. #5
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 10:37 AM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,956
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    11-01-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 AM
    Thread Starter
    The second link does not work sadly Jim, RCS the CAC round what gives the game away being of NZicon production the "N"?

    These black primers are going to be one of those things that we will be chasing our tails for a definitive answer some one here must know something.

    Anyway here is another wildcat I have pretty much over bore the .17 Fred Flintstone the parent case is the 22/250 Rem.

    303 MkVII for scale.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	.17 Fred Flinstone.jpg‎
Views:	94
Size:	868.6 KB
ID:	128694  

  11. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:

    RCS

  12. #6
    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,395
    Real Name
    Robert Seccombe
    Local Date
    10-31-2024
    Local Time
    06:12 PM

    more wildcats the 285 OKH

    the 17 Flintstone Super Eyebunger or Fred Flintstone can fire a 25 gr bullet at 4500 fps which can also punch through a 1/4 metal plate. the manufactures (Ruger was one) and custom barrel makers always had problems with 17 cal (and under) barrels. I have a 17/222 wildcat cartridge which has stood the test of time for the past 40 years. I understand the 17/223 wildcat is still popular.

    My photo shows a 285 OKH from the well know group of O'Neil, Keith and Hopkins and has been around for awhile. Early developments use a flash tube inside the cartridge case extending from the primer, plus a duplex powder charge. In the duplex load a fine powder was used in the rear half and a coarse powder at the front, some loadings used three different types of powder with the flash tube. With the normal loading it appears the 285 OKH is not really any better than the standard factory 280 Remington cartridge

  13. #7
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 10:37 AM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,956
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    11-01-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 AM
    Thread Starter
    Yes I read about the primer tube in Elmer Keith's Hell I Was There (Great book), the .17 calibers when they first come out everybody lauded them as they were ruthless on foxes but kept the energy inside the fox so no big entry/exit wounds. They are very hard to keep clean as they foul pretty easily so the accuracy falls away along with any puff of wind can move that tiny projectile off the target.

    I've burnt foxes with my 22/250 Parker Hale Grand Safari with handloads 55gn Blitz Kings at @3600fps just blows big holes in things and on rabbits it just turns them into red spray but good fun but never miss a fox 'cause if you do they are very wary of the spotlight or whistle crafty suckers.
    I remember I was sitting over a dam ghillie suited in forest pattern using the whistle before moving on and I sorta got this feeling that all was not quite right as the rabbits were not there nor the ducks or divers on the dam hhmmm I thought foxy loxy is about I had a really stiff breeze coming from my Rt. (Important*)
    So I had the rifle on the long harris bi-pod bolt half open holding a round as I was sitting down so here we were mulling over whats up and I happened to look over my Rt shoulder well there you go at 15 feet was Mr foxy loxy head down eyeing me off pondering what this tree stump looking thing was about.
    He was a male in resplendent condition gotta nail you mate, so Rt hand crept towards my rifle sitting on the bi-pod fox notices movement and moves out to 35 feet in front of me still inquisitive whilst my hand is on the rifle good so I started to lift.

    Well things never really align in predicaments like this the wind changed 90 degrees and from behind me now he got a good whiff did an end swap whilst opening the throttle in all fours by this time I had the rifle up but as I was set for a long shot with the scope on 30 power I could not find him.
    By the time I wound the power ring back and got him in the scope he was already zig zagging 180-200 meters away plus I was in a horrid position the long legged bi-pod and heavy 28" barrel it was a difficult off hand shot damn nose heavy rifle!
    I let him live but came across the pair some weeks later killing the vixen going for a 2 in 1 shot but hit her lower jaw so it just blew her up and he off again followed by a hope shot at about 400m.
    Pic of the Vixen that's another funny story she is.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	cropped.JPG‎
Views:	50
Size:	1.40 MB
ID:	128705   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_0823.JPG‎
Views:	43
Size:	1.77 MB
ID:	128706  
    Last edited by CINDERS; 10-31-2022 at 11:29 AM.

  14. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:

    RCS

  15. #8
    Contributing Member CINDERS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 10:37 AM
    Location
    South West Western Australia
    Posts
    7,956
    Real Name
    CINDERS
    Local Date
    11-01-2024
    Local Time
    07:12 AM
    Thread Starter

    7/30 waters

    The 7-30 Waters cartridge was originally a wildcat cartridge developed by author Ken Waters in 1976 to give better performance to lever-action rifle shooters than the parent .30-30 Winchester cartridge, by providing a higher velocity and flatter trajectory with a smaller, lighter bullet. By 1984, Winchester introduced a Model 94 rifle chambered for the 7-30 Waters, establishing it as a commercial cartridge. In 1986, Thompson/Center began chambering 10-inch, 14-inch, and 20-inch Contender barrels for the cartridge.

    Development
    A review of the 7-08 Rem. (a .308 Win. case necked down to 7 mm), explains the design of the cartridge with the following:
    Anything a 7 mm can do, a .30 caliber of comparable sectional density and ballistic coefficient can also do. The catch is, in order to send a .30-caliber slug over a trajectory as flat as that 7 mm bullet, about 20 percent more recoil is going to be generated. A bullet in 7 mm produces clearly superior downrange performance in terms of delivered energy and trajectory at any given recoil level compared to a bullet in .30 caliber.

    There are two primary reasons a 7 mm recoils less than an comparably effective .30 cal. cartridge: To match the 7 mm's ballistic coefficient requires a significantly heavier .30 cal bullet; and to drive that heavier .30 cal bullet at similar velocities (for kinetic energy and wind resistance ("time-to-target")), requires more powder. This combination of heavier bullets with heavier powder charges significantly increases the recoil of the .30 caliber.
    The .30-30 Winchester is typically limited to short ranges, primarily because of the relatively small case capacity and the 150-grain and 170-grain bullet weights. To compensate for this, Waters necked the cartridge down to use a 7 mm bullet (.284 inches), rather than the original .308 caliber (7.62 mm) bullet. Because it was designed to function in lever-action rifles, the 7-30 maintained the same low working pressure, yet Waters' original design fired a lighter bullet (139 grains) at a higher velocity (2600 ft/s).
    A typical .30-30 factory load fires a 150-grain bullet at 2390 ft/s, while the current 7-30 factory load fires a 120-grain bullet at 2700 ft/s. Muzzle energy is just over 1900 ft-lbs for both of these loads, but the lighter weight 7 mm bullet has a higher velocity and flatter trajectory.
    Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	7.30 Waters.jpg‎
Views:	46
Size:	873.7 KB
ID:	128707  

  16. Thank You to CINDERS For This Useful Post:

    RCS

  17. #9
    Legacy Member RCS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Last On
    Today @ 04:39 PM
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    4,395
    Real Name
    Robert Seccombe
    Local Date
    10-31-2024
    Local Time
    06:12 PM

    more wildcats of interest

    The 7-08 Remington (308 necked down to 7mm) was really a military development dating back to the early 1950 period. At this time the FN Factory in Belgiumicon took the US T-65 cartridge case which was 49mm in length (at this time) and necked it down to use the 7mm Mauser S12 bullet. This cartridge fired a 140 bullet at 2750 fps and was called the 7mm Liviano and sold to Venezuela with 5000 new FN FAL rifles in this caliber in 1954. When Remington introduced the 7mm-08 in 1980 it fired a 140gr bullet at 2860 fps -

    The 30-30 wildcats have been around since the 1940's or even before. The two wildcats in my photos are 6,5x30-30 Bullberry and 25x30-30 (many others like the 257JDJ & Imp)

    These were very well liked for hunting with the Thompson-Center single shot pistol - favorite was the 14 inch barrel.

    Remington made the 30-30 into a rimless cartridge called the 30 Remington for pump and autoloaders

    photos show the 7x49 Liviano and 6,5x30-30 & 25x 30-30 wildcats

  18. Thank You to RCS For This Useful Post:


  19. #10
    Contributing Member Woodsy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Last On
    08-04-2024 @ 09:54 PM
    Location
    Central Otago, New Zealand
    Posts
    397
    Real Name
    Rod
    Local Date
    11-01-2024
    Local Time
    11:12 AM
    When NZ began production of the 7.62x51 cartridge at the Colonial Ammunition Company (CAC) in Auckland in 1960, the first batch included the NATO symbol (a cross in a circle) and later batches had the letter N. This was to signify the ammo was loaded to NATO specifications, not to signify NZ was a member of NATO. The N was dropped in 1962 and all later ammo just had CAC L1A1 and two-digit date. CAC went out of business in the early '80's after losing the Army ammo contract in the late '60's. They continued with .22 rimfire, 12 gauge shotgun, and various centrefire hunting calibres but went downhill with poor management, loss of skilled staff, and interference from accountants who didn't understand the complexities of ammunition manufacture. The post-war (1950-1959) .303 Mk VII ammo from CAC was very consistent and high-quality, winning many international rifle matches. The principle reason for the demise of CAC was the decision to retool the very old .303 machinery for 7.62 production instead of going to new and more efficient machines. After CAC the Army purchased ammo from Australiaicon (the excellent F4 from the old CAC factory in Footscray) but now source their ammo from a variety of suppliers. I purchased the last of the NZ Army .303 CAC Mk VII stocks in 1988 (286,000 rounds) and it sold out in six months!

  20. The Following 3 Members Say Thank You to Woodsy For This Useful Post:


+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Cartridges
    By CINDERS in forum The Watering Hole OT (Off Topic) Forum
    Replies: 132
    Last Post: 10-25-2022, 04:53 PM
  2. Some 303 cartridges
    By RCS in forum Ammunition and Reloading for Old Milsurps
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-01-2014, 05:51 PM
  3. Cartridges
    By enfield303t in forum The Watering Hole OT (Off Topic) Forum
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 12-17-2012, 06:03 PM
  4. Some WW1 cartridges
    By RCS in forum Vintage Military Gear
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 11-15-2012, 06:24 AM
  5. some old cartridges
    By RCS in forum Martini Henry Rifles
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-28-2012, 08:34 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts