Sales of fake stamps or other services ....

[Scott2K]

Reproduction work really sickens me. The people who use these twisted people's services makes me sicker. Reproduction stocks, scopes, scope eye cups, butt plates, receiver markings, gas trap parts of all sorts, they all make me quite ill. This site and the GCA should ban any person who either traffics or purchases such an item.

There is a legitimate place for reproduction parts to use when the original parts are no longer available or are unserviceable. Who shoots their 70 year old Garand with the original springs in it? I restored some old motorcycles and KNOW that some original parts are simply not there at any price. What are you supposed to do, abandon the project? No, you buy a reproduction part KNOWING THAT IT IS A REPRO AND CAN BE EASILY RECGONIZED AS SUCH and use it. If a miracle happens and the original part shows up, I'd be the first to swap out the repro for the original and be much happier for it.

The issue is representing the repro as an original and selling it as such. That behavior is probably fraud and as such, illegal. The repro should be easily distinguishable from the original and sold as a repro. I'm not sure that stock stamps fall into this category. You can easily shoot without them. I'm not experienced enough to tell a stamp that has just been applied to an old stamp, but it may be difficult if someone is trying to make it look old. Fraud is fraud and it's in the intent and how the piece is represented.

-Scott

[Badger]

The issue is representing the repro as an original and selling it as such. That behavior is probably fraud and as such, illegal. The repro should be easily distinguishable from the original and sold as a repro. I'm not sure that stock stamps fall into this category. You can easily shoot without them. I'm not experienced enough to tell a stamp that has just been applied to an old stamp, but it may be difficult if someone is trying to make it look old. Fraud is fraud and it's in the intent and how the piece is represented.

-Scott

I think Scott said it better than I did ...

That is the issue, plain and simple, but I have no idea how one contains the problem.

So, "Caveat Emptor" for buyers, but the least we can do here is make sure that people are aware of the problem and sellers who are on the "dark" side of grey, are barred from selling products or services that promote fakery.

Although again, I'm not sure we can do much more than that about it ...

Regards,
Badger

[Badger]

A follow up point on a similar subject, from an old conversation elsewhere on the Internet ...

Personally, I'm in favor of openly publishing opinions about questionable material and links to auctions or sales that may contain them ....

Here's why …

Back in the 1960's and 70's, I used to seriously collect old British military medals that were impressed on the rims named to individual soldiers. The material could get quite expensive when you're talking things like "Charge of the Light Brigade", "Battle of Waterloo" etc....

Unfortunately, fakers started producing stuff that was very hard to distinguish from the originals and in my opinion, seriously affected the marketplace and collector confidence. It got so bad, I sold off almost all my collection and got out of the hobby. Still have a "Waterloo" medal and a few Boer War medals, but the rest went...

We never had the Internet in those days and if we did, I bet it would have helped a lot of collectors avoid ending up with fakes, if they had a place they could have posted pics of an expensive item for some of the more experienced collectors to comment upon, before they bought or bid an auction.

Just my opinion, but I'd like to see a "Counterfeit Forum" and have seriously thought about opening up one in the Knowledge Library, where links to threads about fakery could be accumulated from around the net and concentrated in a single venue.

My two cents, for what it's worth ...

Regards,
Badger

[bearbadge]

I think Scott said it better than I did ...

That is the issue, plain and simple, but I have no idea how one contains the problem.

So, "Caveat Emptor" for buyers, but the least we can do here is make sure that people are aware of the problem and sellers who are on the "dark" side of grey, are barred from selling products or services that promote fakery.

Although again, I'm not sure we can do much more than that about it ...

Regards,
Badger

So we just chased a person off this forum for selling reproduction caroucheons right? He said they were reproductions right? Now were saying that we would let someone sell reproduction butt plates, rear sights, slings, stock ferules, handguard clips, M84 scopes, T37 flash hiders and M84 rubber eye cups?

I guess I had this all wrong, I'm smelling a lot of hypocrisy here. Is it who is doing the selling that really bothers you all? As soon as I throw out names like ricca and pucci you all seem to have crawled in your shells. Now it appears that this stock stamping guy was treated unfairly. To bad his last name wasn't pucci.

[Badger]

I'm smelling a lot of hypocrisy here. Is it who is doing the selling that really bothers you all? As soon as I throw out names like ricca and pucci you all seem to have crawled in your shells. Now it appears that this stock stamping guy was treated unfairly. To bad his last name wasn't pucci.

Hey partner .. slow down ...

There's a big difference between someone who makes and sells a reproduction part to replace a broken legitimate component, so the collector can shoot or use his rifle etc., and someone who takes a bare stock for an M1 Garand and as a service, counterfeits original stamps onto it, proclaiming the caveat that it's being sold as a reproduction without identifying it anywhere as such. Note: he doesn't sell anything as a product, but rather he sells a counterfeiting service.

I made it clear in my comments that this whole thing is a grey area, however, we'll do the best we can to ensure that we create a fairness balance for any vendor who wishes to advertise and ply his wares here for free (we don't charge anyone).

You're out of line defending deadshot as by reading his email response, he's clearly got more serious issues than just creating counterfeit stocks. He's unwelcome here in any form, as is anyone who wants to drag the forums into personal attacks or political discussions that aren't germane to the collecting of old milsurps.

My very first post on this subject said:

The purpose of my posting is to make all our members aware of our position regarding the sales and promoting of products or services such as this, which most collectors would be unable to clearly distinguish them in any manner from original and authentic items. The sale of items that are clearly identifiable as reproductions is permitted.

The operative sentence is the last one ... "The sale of items that are clearly identifiable as reproductions is permitted" and the operative words are "clearly identifiable".

I don't see where deadshot says he marked his stocks as clearly identifiable reproductions, or did I miss something?

I think he ducked the issue by saying, to paraphrase "I don't care what you do with the stock after I've counterfeited it, as it's not my problem, but this disclaimer gives me immunity to hide behind, should you decide to flog it as an authentic collectible item".

It's the latter approach that we'd like to try and help collectors with. Are we doing something wrong in that? If so, I'm listening for any good ideas that are practical to help control these practices and can be actually policed and implemented in a real world manner.

Thanks for the feedback ..

Regards,
Badger (Doug)

[bearbadge]

Hey partner .. slow down ...

There's a big difference between someone who makes and sells a reproduction part to replace a broken legitimate component, so the collector can shoot or use his rifle etc., and someone who takes a bare stock for an M1 Garand and as a service, counterfeits original stamps onto it, proclaiming the caveat that it's being sold as a reproduction without identifying it anywhere as such. Note: he doesn't sell anything as a product, but rather he sells a counterfeiting service.

I made it clear in my comments that this whole thing is a grey area, however, we'll do the best we can to ensure that we create a fairness balance for any vendor who wishes to advertise and ply his wares here for free (we don't charge anyone).

You're out of line defending deadshot as by reading his email response, he's clearly got more serious issues than just creating counterfeit stocks. He's unwelcome here in any form, as is anyone who wants to drag the forums into personal attacks or political discussions that aren't germane to the collecting of old milsurps.

My very first post on this subject said:



The operative sentence is the last one ... "The sale of items that are clearly identifiable as reproductions is permitted" and the operative words are "clearly identifiable".

I don't see where deadshot says he marked his stocks as clearly identifiable reproductions, or did I miss something?

I think he ducked the issue by saying, to paraphrase "I don't care what you do with the stock after I've counterfeited it, as it's not my problem, but this disclaimer gives me immunity to hide behind, should you decide to flog it as an authentic collectible item".

It's the latter approach that we'd like to try and help collectors with. Are we doing something wrong in that? If so, I'm listening for any good ideas that are practical to help control these practices and can be actually policed and implemented in a real world manner.

Thanks for the feedback ..

Regards,
Badger (Doug)

I am clearly NOT out of line LOL and because you say I am does not make it so . I have been ripped off by butt plates before and because someone else has not does not make it less of a problem. A few questions Badger Pertaining to your quote" There's a big difference between someone who makes and sells a reproduction part to replace a broken legitimate component, so the collector can shoot or use his rifle etc., and someone who takes a bare stock for an M1 Garand and as a service, counterfeits original stamps onto it, proclaiming the caveat that it's being sold as a reproduction without identifying it anywhere as such. "

Questions,

1.You do NOT need a reproduction no trap butt plate to shoot a rifle do you?
2.You do NOT need a reproduction eye M84 eye cup to shoot a rifle do you?
3. You do NOT need a reproduction M84 scope to shoot a rifle do you?
4. You do NOT need a reproduction sling to shoot a rifle do you?
5. You do NOT need a reproduction rear sight to shoot a rifle do you?
6. You do NOT need a reproduction cartouche to shoot a rifle do you?
7. You do NOT need a reproduction gas trap part to shoot a rifle do you?
8. You do NOT need a reproduction flash hider to shoot a rifle do you?


I was ON BOARD with hanging this reproduction guy out to dry but it appears that this group is not consistent with how they levy justice. If I'm wrong, show me how any of questions 1-9 are any different from each other? Any reproduction markings can be milled or ground off of steel and sanded from wood.

To say this stock humper is any worse than these other humpers is like the old guy who's going 65 on a 55mph highway while flipping off the guy who passes him going 70.

If this is how we choose to address humpers, no wonder nothing has been done about it. A GCA board member selling humped parts? That's completely funny in a very wrong and sick way.

[mack]

I can see both sides of this argument, but I have to admit that in the may years I have been buying and collecting M1's, the problem of fake cartouches has simply taken the day, so to speak. There are so many and so many of these new ones ARE so well done as to be difficult to discern from originals.

The trick is to know your wood and how to discern "old" wood from newer types. The only solution is to study older stocks and look at cutter marks. Learn to look at wood and see the ones that have finishes that look 70 years old. Do these have dark "pitting" down in the grain that comes form years of handling and dirt rubbed into the wood? Or, are they clean and fresh looking as if they were "new" stocks. Do they have dirt inside the stock? Many people will strip a stock and leave dirt and grease inside while refinishing the outside to new condition.

Clearly, none of this can be learned overnight or is 100% foolproof. I claim no expertise, but I have looked at literally thousands of rifles and most of them milsurps of various types. I have refinished stocks for several years and have seen many types of wood used. I would urge all collectors to direct their efforts to studying metal and wood finished in order to be tricked or cheated. There is NO SUBSTITUTE for knowledge of your hobby. Depending on someone to be honest is never a good option.

I personally don't like repro stamps, but I try to watch for obvious fakes The only protection I know of is to use common sense. If it looks too good to be true, then it probably is not original. Frankly, avoid rifles that look too new and have shiny wood, as you know no original military rifle came with a high gloss wood finish. Fakers can't seem to resist refinishing wood to look like the latest high gloss. A few have become skilled enough however to "age" their fake cartouches so they sort of blend in with an older piece of wood. Those are darned hard to tell from real ones sometimes, unless you look for obvious refinishing signs.

Good luck and I hope this helps. And don't call people counterfeiters, at least not around here, if you value your dental work!

[Joe W]

I don't have a problem with parts made (reproduced) that will improve the rifle for it's intended purpose, shooting. Or parts that are no longer available, such as gas trap parts. But things such as phony cartouche stampings, bother me. I see no reason for them other than to defraud. If not now, certainly in the future. Thats only my feelings others may feel different.

[Badger]

If this is how we choose to address humpers, no wonder nothing has been done about it. A GCA board member selling humped parts? That's completely funny in a very wrong and sick way.

Robert Kennedy once said, "10 percent of people will never agree with anything" ...

My friend, I have no interest in wading through a pile of questions, as it's apparent you still haven't read the content of what I wrote in my first post. This isn't about some profound injustice done to an innocent party whom you now feel compelled to champion his cause, because you feel he's no worse than some others who have done you personal wrongs.

This individual never participated in ANY forum as a member. He was politely asked to refrain posting free advertisements on our site for his counterfeit Garand stock stamping services. The request was courteous and Bill Hollinger explained why in very civil way. His response was to insult one of our moderators telling him to KMA "kiss my a$$" and now you're wondering why he's been singled out and banned?

I don't know whether you're trolling, or simply like to argue for the sake of arguing, but regardless, there's no point dragging this discussion on further and I didn't see any constructive suggestions from you as to how we should police the problem for the benefit of everyone here.

If you have any, or feel you'd like to talk about this problem over the phone, send me a PM or email with your phone number and I'd be happy to call you at my expense and we can work together to see if there's a practical solution.

In the interim, we'll continue to address the problem on a case by case basis, in a reasonable attempt to protect the interests of collectors, but also by handling any vendor with products or services, in a "fair, firm and friendly" manner.

Thanks again for your feedback ...

This thread is closed as it appears to have run its course ....

Regards,
Badger (Doug)