Shapes

[andiarisaka]

I can't play along much Joe. Lowest # I have is a 12000 range. There is however an obvious difference in the plates somewhere between 17000 and 22000 that I'm sure you've already made note of. That is the cut at the rear, call it a filet if you will, runs right through the screwhead on 12000 and 17000, but is above the screwhead on 22000. Oh, suppose I ought to post some crappy pics to illustrate.

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[5MadFarmers]

I can't play along much Joe. Lowest # I have is a 12000 range.

When they rebuilt the 1892s they didn't keep the parts together. Later guns, those that didn't have serialized parts as made, gained them. Those that had them lost them. They tore the guns down, inspected the parts, made their changes to the guns, and built the guns from the bin of parts including new ones as necessary. The 1892'96 rifles I have are a cornucopia of parts. Makes them interesting. Lack of numbered plates and followers was noticed. Numbered gates - those I have. They arrived on various guns but never on the ones they were on originally. It's like Bingo. Gun 2### having a gate numbered 8### kind of thing. Not terribly different from the "Russian Capture" K98s. I once considered starting an orphan gate list. I have gates 3###, 8###, 8### but need gates 4###, 9### kind of thing. No point though so I let the thought die the death it earned.

There is however an obvious difference in the plates somewhere between 17000 and 22000 that I'm sure you've already made note of.

In my simple mind there are 3 side plates: 1892, 1896, 1898. That is a gross simplification but it works for me. The "1896" plates will be found on late 1892s and early 1898s. There are more differences than that, and I'm aware of them, but the simplified system works for what I need. The "1892" plate has that screw form thing you mention. "1898" plates have a rounded corner where it isn't rounded on the "1896" (rear top). This system ignores changes like the thicker tenon on the plates installed on 1898 rifles (including plates having the "1896" form) but those changes aren't easily detected visually. The easiest to detect visually is the change you mention. Magazine gates also have externally visible changes. The magazine gate changed (and it can be seen externally) during the production run of the 1892s. The front of the gate is shaped differently from the later gates. There is an "1898" change there too - the back of the gate is more squared. Again, there are many changes but 3 I can detect from photos without difficulty. Recently a rifle was pictured on this site (might have been a carbine) that should have had the "square" 1898 gate but in fact had an earlier one.

When you say "between 17K and 22K" you hit another problem. The lack of a serial number table I trusted was a problem. I now have a reliable table. It's a sliding time game:

1) Get a serial number table that is accurate enough to begin pinning serials to time.
2) Grab the list of changes.
3) Do voodoo theory on how long after manufacture a part shows up on a gun.

#1 and #3 were a big problem. Took a tremendous amount of work to get those out of never-never land. I'm pretty far along at that but not really happy at what I found.

That time slide varies over time. Greatly. Which makes the voodoo theory double voodoo. Parts that were assembled into the 1896 carbines were, in some undebatable cases, made a year before the carbines popped out. On the early 1898 rifles it took about 4 months, or less, for the parts to go from fabrication to an assembled gun.

Then it gets harder, my brain begins to hurt, and I go do lawn work.