Krag Carbine Help..........(Pics)

[jon_norstog]

Target-panic,

the postcards and notes are great. I was looking through the reports from the China campaign - no mention of our soldier, so he didn't get hurt and he didn't commit any crimes, at least that he got caught for. If he was cav at that time, he **had** to have been in the 6th. There was one officer from the 7th who was an aide-de-camp to Chaffee; no mention of anyone from the 1st.

It was originally planned that the forces would be built up to about 80,000 troops. The First and the Seventh were going to be sent out ... those plans were made when it was thought that the legations had been overrun and everyone wiped out. Then they started getting messages from inside the walls, that the legations were holding out. Plans changed, and they went for broke with what they had.

Our soldier had to be on the ground to get that ribbon. He could have been in the 9th or 14th infantry, the 6th cavalry or the 5th Artillery. If he was Army, that's about it.

jn

PS. Scans of the postcards and photos would help identify the ships and places, transcripts or scans of the mesages would be great, too.

[target-panic]

Jon,

I believe that I sent you this info;

He enlisted in the regular army (1st Cavalry) on 16 Apr 1902. (Discharged from the 6th Cavalry, 15 Apr, 1905 in Texas).

Would this fall into the right time frame.....for China???

His grandson also mentioned service in Mexico when I talked with him the other day. What would that have been for?

[jon_norstog]

Target-p

Some elements of the 6th stayed on in China after the campaign. He got the Campaign Medal, so he was there between June 20, 1900 and May 27, 1901. If he had gotten a citation, there would be a star in the ribbon, I believe. He may have reenlisted in 1902 after a "shore break."

I believe the 6th returned from its second PI tour in 1910 and was assigned to patrol the Mexican border. It went to Mexico with Pershing, chasing Pancho Villa. It was involved in the fighting against Mexican government forces, who were [U]also[U] chasing Villa.

There is a museum of the 6th cavalry regiment in Georgia. I might contact them to see what kind of information they might have.

their address: info@6thcavalrymuseum.com

It is getting to be a pretty interesting story.

jn

[target-panic]

Wow......The grandson told me the other day that his father had said something about his grandfather "Chasing Pancho Villa". I thought this was insignificant......or maybe just a term used to describe service in Mexico so I failed to mention it.

[jon_norstog]

Target-panic, & list:

The Mexican expedition was kind of a fiasco. They never came close to catching Villa, although Lt George Patton caught and killed Julio Cardenas. The Carranza government wanted to see an end to Villa, but not at American hands. there were some fights, including a pretty heavy one at Carrizal between the 7th cavalry and the 10th infantry on the US side, and a company of Mexican Army soldiers. In the communications that followed between Mexican military and Pershing, it was indicated that the Mexicans would accept no movements of US forces except toward the border.

Meanwhile - this was the end of 1916 and into January 1917, the Germans were feeling out the Mexican government on the subject of an alliance. The "Zimmermann telegram" put things into perspective for the US government, and it was decided that Mexico was not the enemy.

Pershing thought the whole thing was a fiasco. I suspect if you can find some letters home you'll read some choice comments.

jn

[jon_norstog]

Shooting Balnks here!

I got a reply from the 6th Cavalry museum at Ft. Oglethorpe:

www.6thcavalrymuseum.com/

They don't have much for personnel records, nothing on our soldier. I guess we're on our own. Target panic sent me this OL:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...609C946197D6CF

Which explains where E,F,G&H troops were when the s**t hit the fan. In any case, they split the regiment further, keeping I,K,L,& M troops in China and sending the rest back to the Philippines.

The NY Times archives are a great source, thanks, target.
jnJ

[target-panic]

I got some handwritten notes from the grandson today. They were given to him by his father. Maybe this will help. Jon & 5MF let me know if this helps in any way.

Enlisted: May 16th 1898 Co. M 34th U.S.V. Inf.
Discharged: December 9th 1898.

Enlisted: January 23rd 1899 Troop B. 6th U.S. Cav.
Discharged: January 17th 1902

Enlisted: April 16th 1902 Troop G. 1st U.S. Cav.
Discharged: April 15th 1905

As I said before there is evidence of later Naval service also.......I'll see what I can find out about that.

[5MadFarmers]

Those dates don't, with the exception of the last discharge, mesh with the official enlistment records. Not that that really matters that much. Maybe it does? I don't think so. Official records can be wrong. Family records can be wrong. It would take work to confirm either.

That last discharge date matches. The record also noted it was in Texas. We know he was a cop shortly thereafter. That and the marriage bits.

So I guess I'm perplexed. What are you looking for specifically?

Is a guy. A guy who served his time in the military. Some state and some federal. Some as a grunt and some as a horse soldier.

Is a guy with a Krag carbine. A carbine with a strange collection of parts on it if I recall it right.

Is a guy and a gun which are pretty close to impossible to match together without records.

Did the guy take his gun home? Did he buy it at Big Lou's Sporting Goods in Chicago when he lived there in WW1? Hard to say. Without a record, impossible to say.

If the record that ties that gun to that dude doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Most don't. If it does, bingo. B, I, N, G, O. Hard to play that game though.

Actually, now that I think about it, positive information isn't the only kind. Negative information works too.

It might be impossible to determine that the gun and the dude did time together. That said, it is more likely that it can be proven that they didn't. It's more likely, on the face of it, that they didn't serve together. That can be confirmed much more easily.

Consider it a game. Tell me how?

<5MF playing Jeopardy music.>

Do do do do, do do do, do do do do, dooo, do do do do do, do do do do, do do do, do do do do do, do, do. Bomp, bomp.

</end Jeopardy music.>

Time's up. What is your answer?

No, I'm sorry, "I don't know" is not the answer.

While records for that carbine might not exist, what should exist is the records of the issue of the Model 1899 carbines to the 6th and 1st Cavalry. Get it? Your dude has the '96. Those were likely passe by then. Simply no longer stylish. Not the model that the cool kids were getting uncle Sammy to provide.

So, find the issue records for 1899 carbines to those two Cav units. If those pre-date 1905, I'd go with "Lou's Sporting Goods" myself.

Your mileage may, and will, vary.

If it helps, I really do hope that the 1896s were still with the 1st at that time. That'd be the coolest outcome.

Cheers.

[target-panic]

Those dates don't, with the exception of the last discharge, mesh with the official enlistment records. Not that that really matters that much. Maybe it does? I don't think so. Official records can be wrong. Family records can be wrong. It would take work to confirm either.

That last discharge date matches. The record also noted it was in Texas. We know he was a cop shortly thereafter. That and the marriage bits.

So I guess I'm perplexed. What are you looking for specifically?

Is a guy. A guy who served his time in the military. Some state and some federal. Some as a grunt and some as a horse soldier.

Is a guy with a Krag carbine. A carbine with a strange collection of parts on it if I recall it right.

Is a guy and a gun which are pretty close to impossible to match together without records.

Did the guy take his gun home? Did he buy it at Big Lou's Sporting Goods in Chicago when he lived there in WW1? Hard to say. Without a record, impossible to say.

If the record that ties that gun to that dude doesn't exist, it doesn't exist. Most don't. If it does, bingo. B, I, N, G, O. Hard to play that game though.

Actually, now that I think about it, positive information isn't the only kind. Negative information works too.

It might be impossible to determine that the gun and the dude did time together. That said, it is more likely that it can be proven that they didn't. It's more likely, on the face of it, that they didn't serve together. That can be confirmed much more easily.

Consider it a game. Tell me how?

<5MF playing Jeopardy music.>

Do do do do, do do do, do do do do, dooo, do do do do do, do do do do, do do do, do do do do do, do, do. Bomp, bomp.

</end Jeopardy music.>

Time's up. What is your answer?

No, I'm sorry, "I don't know" is not the answer.

While records for that carbine might not exist, what should exist is the records of the issue of the Model 1899 carbines to the 6th and 1st Cavalry. Get it? Your dude has the '96. Those were likely passe by then. Simply no longer stylish. Not the model that the cool kids were getting uncle Sammy to provide.

So, find the issue records for 1899 carbines to those two Cav units. If those pre-date 1905, I'd go with "Lou's Sporting Goods" myself.

Your mileage may, and will, vary.

If it helps, I really do hope that the 1896s were still with the 1st at that time. That'd be the coolest outcome.

Cheers.

Wow!!!! Thanks for the looooooong answer. I can't help but feel somewhat of a rant in your lines. I guess I'm passing on the little bits of information as it is acquired from the soldiers family............with the hope that someone more experienced than myself might see a "clue" that might somehow tie the carbine to service.........or soldier. I'm starting to see from your last couple of posts that this may be a "pie in the sky " notion at best. Of course how would I know this..............never even held a Krag until I stumbled across this carbine a couple of month ago.

If it's from Big Lou's Sporting Goods........That's fine. It's still a nice carbine (mismatched bolt bits aside). It just seems to me........when looking at the whole collection...........that service use could be possible.......but what do I know anyway???

To 5MF, Jon & Chuck and others on this site that I've exchanged PM's with, "Thanks" for helping out the novice. The messege that I'm getting is it may be time to let this thread fade off into the sunset.....

Thanks Again!

[VET70]

It would be interesting to find out how the gentleman got the medal with the green and black ribbon. It is a Serbian medal issued in 1920 to commemorate the 1915 retreat of the Serbian army through Albania and eventual evacuation to the Greek island of Korfu. Now you wil really have to do some research!