Chamber shoulder and case shoulder gauge for .303?

[ireload2]

Yes, and the reason is that the radial (circumferential) elongation of approximately 10% exceeds the elastic limit of the brass in that part of the case.

Just my example that all strain of the brass is cumulative.
You can't discount stretching whether it is axial or radial or both combined.
The elastic nature of the LE action and the large clearance between the case head and the chamber tend to concentrate the damage to the case at the pressure ring.

[Bindi2]

I must have missed something here. Regardless of where the case came from or how you made it the debate is about factory made cases failling not a test on how to make or measure home made ones. Take as many new manufactures as there is or you can source, need two of each one for the oring starter method the other without then test to destruction. Then list in order of failure. Simple. See if you can beat second firing no oring rifle inside spec. Load 135gnHP 2700fps using AR2208 [ varget ]

[Patrick Chadwick]

A very good suggestion. Have you got the time and means to do it? I must confess that, myself, I have neither, but it would be a service to all if someone could do it and we got away from a long discussion based on (at least in my case) only basic knowledge of metallurgy.

Patrick

[Edward Horton]

Ladies and Germs

I first heard about the o-ring fire forming method at the old Jouster forum and as terryinvictoria stated he is the one who brought it to my attention. At Gunboards I did a thread on the o-ring method entitled “Fireforming w/zero headspace” which ireload2 hijacked with his .444 and .405 oiled cases.

What I was trying to do was show the simplicity and advantages of using o-rings in the fire forming process and not having to use any lubricants on the cases or in the chamber. The o-ring method also has the benefit of centering the case in the chamber and promoting equal case expansion.

I had to send a Remington 760 back to the factory for repairs in the 1970s because I was fire forming with lubed cases and the added bolt thrust damaged the rifle. After conversations with the people at the Remington repair facility I NEVER used lube or oil to fire form a case again.

The Enfield Rifle will flex less and the bolt will compress less with a dry oil and grease free chamber, oiling and greasing the cases only adds to the problem.

The o-ring method allows you to shoot factory loaded ammunition without getting any case stretching or thinning in the web area.

The factory loaded Privi Partizan ammunition has the largest base diameter of the currently manufactured ammunition at .455 compared to Winchester and Remington at .450-449 and weighs in at approximately 173 grains or 10 grains heavier than Remington.

A New Zealander named Beelzebub in an email told me he had the best luck reloading Privi Partizan ammunition and after experimenting with fire forming some factory loaded Privi .303 ammunition and using the o-ring method things are looking up.

Below a fired Privi .303 case







I do not have any certificates, citations or computer software that guesstimates bolt compression, I do have a gauge that lets me check for case stretching in the web area each and every time the case is fired.



I’m in the middle of testing Remington cases and factory loaded Privi Parizan ammunition, when I’m done I will report my findings back to you.
(I have had rain delays the last four days)

[ireload2]

I must have missed something here. Regardless of where the case came from or how you made it the debate is about factory made cases failling not a test on how to make or measure home made ones. Take as many new manufactures as there is or you can source, need two of each one for the oring starter method the other without then test to destruction. Then list in order of failure. Simple. See if you can beat second firing no oring rifle inside spec. Load 135gnHP 2700fps using AR2208 [ varget ]

Bindi,
That is not my debate, that is I disagree with your theory. If you and EH want to alledge that factory brass is bad YOU have to prove it. MY goal is to prove the British design specification that results in so much clearance between the case head and the chamber causes a lot of the problem with case life. Second to that, the springiness of the Lee Enfield action causes a lot of the problem. I have posted the values for the stretch and compression of the action. If you disagree with those numbers get a first year mechanical engineering student to run them for you. It takes longer to measure the action than to do the calcualtions. If you want to ignore these two problem areas and say it is all just a matter of defective brass you need to test your own theories. My experiment is to test the theory that excessive clearance between the case head and the chamber causes reduced case life. That is why I am testing the .444 Marlin and .405 brass. This work has been in process a long time. I bought the .444 cases 20 years ago. I have about 30 of these case to shoot until they fail. I also have a Frankenstein lot made of a lot of odd cases that I will shoot. These cases are 35 to 40 years old. They will give some indication that the brass in the good old days was no better than brass you buy today. There were a lot of case head separation then as now. It is my belief that you will not solve this problem EXCEPT by changing something. There are only 2 brands of domestic .303 brass readily available in the US ---Remington and Winchester. Federal and Hornady is available as factory ammo, as is nny (PPU) and Sellier & Bellot. I have either ammo or brass from all of these as well as the boxer primed HXP military brass. Norma is listed as available. Additional tests on these other brass may be made after my current and most radical tests. (I also have some experience with Remington, Winchester, Frontier and and Federal brass when formed to be used in the 6.5X53R Dutch Mannlicher. The Mannlicher action though ancient is much more rigid than than the Lee-Enfield. It's chamber has about a .002 to .003 clearance with the same brass that is being called defective here. Yet in the Mannlicher it gives no problems.)
My previous experience with case head separations with all brand of brass in 3 different Lee-Enfield rifles makes me inclined to think there are other problems besides just the quality of the brass.
You and other shooters say the O'rings will solve all the problems. All I can say is test the O rings. Shoot 10 or 15 cases until half fail and report the case life.
Bindi if your proof requires shooting a particular load you need to cough up the money and start shooting. I never shoot a bullet that light nor do I shoot Varget. My question to all is if you prove that there is a problem with a particular brand of brass what next? Are you going to recommend a brand of brass that is the optimum in performance? Are you going to petition the various brass manufacturers to change their brass? What are you going to ask them to change? Chemistry, physical properties, temper, dimensions??? Or are you going to say "it's bad please fix it. I don't know how just fix it."
If you change the brass dimensions what do you change them to and insure they fit all Lee-Enfields? I know what to change them to for one Lee-Enfield.

[Edward Horton]

So now we are getting somewhere, in 40 years oiling standard .303 cases you have not solved the stretching and thinning in the web area problem. You are so frustrated about this you even hijacked my o-ring thread at Gunboards and started two other threads in protest.

I have a great idea, let’s divide into two camps, the oily greasy gang and the clean and pristine dry case intellectuals. The oily greasy gang can test KY His and Hers and see who can get their cases to scream in ecstasy and I will get the boring test with the dry cases and dry chambers.

We can meet back here in 40 years and see who had the most pleasurable multiple case separations.

So now we are getting somewhere, in 40 years oiling standard .303 cases you have not solved the stretching and thinning in the web area problem. You are so frustrated about this you even hijacked my o-ring thread at Gunboards and started two other threads in protest.

I have a great idea, let’s divide into two camps, the oily greasy gang and the clean and pristine dry case intellectuals. The oily greasy gang can test KY His and Hers and see who can get their cases to scream in ecstasy and I will get the boring test with the dry cases and dry chambers.

We can meet back here in 40 years and see who had the most pleasurable multiple case separations.

Below my Mk.2 with the bolt resting on a .064 headspace gauge, headspace set at .061, second photo with both bolt heads with the original # 1 at .067, I’m going to add a 3rd bolt head at .074 or greater for testing.





Please remember my chamber and cases will be as dry as a popcorn fart.

[ireload2]

No matter what you do if the case sticks to the chamber and the action stretches the brass is going to stretch also. Using the case to absorb a load off of the action is dumb when it ruins the brass.
My first year mfg. model 760 still works great. I have never damaged a gun with a reload.
Tell us how you screwed up the 760 Mr Intellectual.

[Edward Horton]

Tell us how you screwed up the 760 Mr Intellectual.

By fire forming cases with lubrication on them, I screwed the gun up because I listened to someone who said lubing the cases would not hurt anything.

That person was wrong and the books and manuals were correct.






An intellectual (from the adjective meaning "involving thought and reason")

[ireload2]

Don't really believe your story or you have the slowest memory known to mankind.
Weren't you recently suspended from another forum for being such a sexual intellectual?

[Edward Horton]

Ireload2

This is why I asked if you were related to GunnerSam at Gunboards, you are arguing with everyone who disagrees with you and not only just me, and that is here and at Gunboards.

Your ego is writing checks your backside can’t cash and you will be the next one banned.

Now think real hard on this one, what are the actual chances of everyone else being wrong in the forums and only you being right all the time and knowing everything.

In most cases like this the type person that is doing all the arguing is nothing more than a troll looking for attention.

I said before you opened this thread just to start arguments and I was right, so let me give you some advice, if you argue with Parashooter the best you can hope for is a draw or a tie game once in a blue moon and only if Parashooter is having a very bad day and so far you haven’t scored any points with anybody.

If anyone would like to contribute to the Ed Horton “I argued with Parashooter and tied once in 6 years fund” please contact me.