Royal engineers "sappers" tunnel rifle

[Peter Laidler]

My older sister, a now retired Barrister (a Civil Law Barrister as opposed to a Criminal one although some might argue differently! Some called her '....a right little barrister.....') told me once that a good way to get a salient point across was to use a salient but simple example............

Tunnel rifles.......... Like being taken on a school trip for an expedition to climb Everest - in trainers and gymn shorts, a warm top and a day sack for your sandwiches. You COULD of course....., and all power to you and the teacher who suggested it. On the other hand, you could, or probably would injure yourself. Others of a more sensible disposition might simply suggest that it wasn't a good idea in the first place....

There's a ring of truth to this comparison too. I was out with a group of well equipped/fed and watered TA soldiers high the Northumbrian hills. I wouldn't say that we were totally lost as the Offivcer i/c knew we were somewhere in Northumberland while the Infantry Sergeant knew where we were to within 100 yards or so. Anyway..... We also had radios and beacons etc etc. The weather closed in as it is apt to do up there. As the fog and mist was closing in someone saw, about a mile away, a family of 5 out for a bloody walk in their summer clothes and only a 'bubbled' (and therefore useless.....) silva compass and a wet map between them. Two of the blokes walked down to them and shepherded the knackered kids and dopey parents up to us where we all sheltered for a couple of hours, had some warm food and gave them some dry windproof jackets.

Two hours later things are much better so two of the team escorted them back the 6 miles across country to their car. Yep....., you could attempt Everest like that but on the other hand......

[Roger Payne]

Thanks for that Pete. I absolutely agree with the point that you're making about it being a bad idea to set off ill prepared. However, you're analogy also works the other way - in spite of it being a bad idea the dopey family had done it all the same! They had 'pursued the bad idea'. And how often do we read in the papers of dimwits being rescued off Snowden in their swimming trunks etc.....?

I agree with you 100% about the degree of shortening of the barrels of the SMLE's shown making them a bloody awful proposition, but you have never explained how you can say with almost mathematical certainty that because they were a bad idea they couldn't have existed - never ever - not one. Unless I've misinterpreted you this seems to me to be what you're saying, but I'm afraid I can't see how you can be so certain, especially when a few examples have survived (ok some may have been made for other purposes), & we have primary source documented evidence that they were seen at Mount Sorrel in the Ypres Salient at the time, in the hands of tunnellers.

I mentioned several months ago in this thread that it is a truism that sometimes bad ideas do get off the ground before they are perceived to be the foolishness that they are. I only say that there is evidence that a few SMLE's were modified on an ad hoc basis by individuals, no more. But some bad ideas even get as far as production - let's face it how else could you explain the Austin Allegro or the Morris Marina?!

Happy New Year mate. ATB for 2015.

[Gil Boyd]

Roger,
I won't have that.................the Maxi was far worse
Happy New Year...........and sorry we are a tad behind you Aussies and Kiwis "as always"

[Peter Laidler]

Or....... what about the Morris ITAL. It was said that the Great Wall of China and the door shut lines of a Morris Ital were the only two man made things visible from space.

Still pondering over your most recent efforts to convert me to the square earth club Rog. Yep, the dopey family HAD done it, because dopey dad had presumably said it was a good idea*. But One Officer seeing one/some of these rifles in the hands of (quantity?) Canadian Sapper in 19xx and then saying such in a paper doesn't to me seem like a forensic way of establishing the actual provenance of something. I wonder whether this fact has ever been recorded in the Royal Cdn Engineers archives.

* When the two blokes actually went down the hillside to speak to aimless/gormeless/dopey dad on the track that went to nowhere, he suggested to them that WE should move down to HIS level to assist him as the mist and fog at our height hadn't descended to his level -- yet! I told them on the radio that WE had the food, the warm clothes, maps and proper kit and he should get his ar....., er....., bottom up to us if he wanted or needed our assistance.. Diplomacy takes a bit of a back seat sometimes. Mind you, diplomacy was never a strong feature during military/adventure training as I recall!

[Roger Payne]

Not a forensic way no, but we have to go by what evidence we have.....

By the way, hadn't you heard that the Earth is flat & the centre of the universe? Man, your way behind the times!

Gil, you might be right there, mind you I did once own an Austin Montego (I'm ashamed to say), but I was young & foolish then.

[Gil Boyd]

"...............................now if only I could get this thread back on track"
I have the Holy Grail......... a photo of a Squadron of Sappers all holding cut off SMLE's.
as if ?HAPPY NEW YEAR

[fjruple]

I have been giving this thread a little thought. I believe most of us are combat veterans of one war or another. I can recall that front line soldiers but yours and the enemies will often with a better mouse trap to "solve" a local tactical problem. And most of us know that these ideas are good up until the first time they are put to practical use. As with the sapper tunnel SMLEs the muzzle blast and flash in close confines of a dirt tunnel would have nix the idea on a second use or shot.

Since there appears to be a lot of these sapper SMLEs we must be missing something. Is it possible that the sapper's were using a "guard" round of some sort to reduce the muzzle flash and flash from such a short weapon? The US military were using "guard" rounds in our Springfield M1903's up and until WWI. Did the British Army have something equivalent to a reduce loaded .303 for guard duty? Just a thought on the subject.

--fjruple

[Roger Payne]

Thanks fjr for your suggestion - it would certainly be a sensible idea in the respect of producing a less violent discharge, & downloaded 303 rounds did exist early on in the cartridge's service career, but to the best of my knowledge they were not used in the front line & I really think that these rifles were shortened as one-off's by inexperienced soldiers (most of them were digging sewers only weeks before) & as their digging skills were so urgently needed their general training was scant, especially with the earlier drafts (the first drafts were at the front three days after signing up). I think you & Peter are right in stating that if they fired them once they probably wouldn't be keen to do it a second time. I suspect that they were well intentioned but ill advised. I also suspect that relatively few were converted, on an ad hoc basis, & probably no two would be exactly the same. If the barrels were left somewhat longer they wouldn't be quite such a frightful proposition to fire. Many years ago I bought a shortened rifle out of a local auction. The auctioneer was not a RFD & had no idea that the incomplete & rather rusty 1916 SMLE he had for sale was in fact 'on ticket,' so I ended up buying it & booking it on to save his embarrassment & stop anyone else without a licence from buying it. IIRC it cost me 18 quid! It had been cut short immediately in front of the barrel band. It might have been done by sappers, or it might have been done by the IRA or for a bank job for all I know, but it would have made a marginally 'less worse' tunnel rifle than the 'SMLE pistols' currently in question.

[bigduke6]

but I was young & foolish then.

Think all of us have been there....

[Vincent]

I bought a disassembled mare’s leg No.1 from a pawn shop a while back. I paid $20 for it. I might have paid $30 if the guy would have “romanced” it with a good story like it being a sapper’s tunnel gun or something like that.