Why so rough

[Merlin266]

I have a 1918 SMLE and a 1945 No4T and shoot them regularly, I have noticed when watching folk shooting similar Enfield Rifles, a fascination for fast cycling of the bolt. My rifles operate just fine with a smooth bolt operation. What's the reason for this fast cycling of the bolt when shooting these old weapons?

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[browningautorifle]

What's the reason for this fast cycling

Is their operation not smooth also? Maybe they like doing it that way...

[CINDERS]

SPEED and plenty of it there were not many bolt guns in the World Wars that could match the Lee Enfield for fire power there was a tale of the Germans at battalion strength advancing on a British held trench in WWI the brits armed with lee enfields and such was the rate of fire power coming from that line they thought there was a machine gun battalion there the advance was halted due to losses by the enemy and volume of fire.
The brittish regulars trained very hard at high rate of accurate fire of course as the war progressed training was not as thorough but good enough.
The first Mad Minute record was set by Sergeant Major Jesse Wallingford in 1908, scoring 36 hits on a 48 inch target at 300 yards (4.5 mils/ 15.3 MOA).[1] Allegedly another world record of 38 hits, all within the 24 inch target at 300 yards (2.25 mils/ 7.6 MOA), is said to have been set in 1914 by Sergeant Instructor Alfred Snoxall,[2] but there is little documentation and it is unsure whether it was actually accomplished or British propaganda. There has been major discussion whether it is actually possible to shoot that fast and accurate with a bolt rifle. Its fun to have a go at we often get a crack at it after one of our shoots I manage @25 rounds depending on meltdowns like misfeeds etc.

THE MAD MINUTE.
The Mad Minute is best known as a bolt-rifle speed shooting event, which was derived from a pre-World War I rapid-fire exercise used by British Army riflemen, using the Lee–Enfield service rifle. The exercise (Practice number 22, Rapid Fire, ‘The Musketry Regulations, Part I, 1909) required the rifleman to fire 15 rounds at a “Second Class Figure” target at 300 yards. The practice was described as; “Lying. Rifle to be loaded and 4 rounds in the magazine before the target appears. Loading to be from the pouch or bandolier by 5 rounds afterwards. One minute allowed”. The practice was only one of the exercises from the annual classification shoot which was used to grade a soldier as a marksman, first-class or second-class shot, depending on the scores he had achieved.
The “Second Class Figure Target” was 48" square (approximately 1.2 x 1.2 meters), with 24” inner (61 cm) and 36” magpie (92 cm) circles. The aiming mark was a 12” x 12” (30 x 30 cm) silhouette figure that represented the outline of the head of a man aiming a rifle from a trench. Points were scored by a hit anywhere on the target. Although a 12” target is often mentioned in connection with the Mad Minute practice, this seems to have been an error originating in Ian Hogg’s book, ‘The Encyclopedia of Weaponry’. No other source mentions a 12" target. Thus according to the myth the target size would have been a 1.11 mil circle (3.82 MOA), while in reality the target size was a 4.5 mil square (15.3 MOA) making the area counting scoring hits over 15 times bigger.

WORLD RECORD.
In the Mad Minute Challenge in Norway in 2015 a standard 200 m DFS target was used, scoring 1 point for every hit inside the black area which is 40 cm in diameter and corresponds to 2 mils at 200 meters (6.9 moa). This actually makes the target size used in the Norwegian event smaller compared to the myth of Alfred Snoxall, who allegedly had all 36 hits inside a 24" circle at 300 yards (2.22 mils/ 7.64 MOA).
A Mad Minute event was held in Soknedal, Norway, on 30 May 2015 featuring some of the best stang shooters in the country. The competition was called the "Mad Minute Challenge"[1], and was shot at a round 40 cm diameter target at 200 meters (2 mils/ 6.9 moa), making the target smaller than original. The winner, Thomas Høgåsseter, scored 36 hits. The average score, of 11 shooters, was 29.

[Eaglelord17]

The reasons why the Enfield bolt is so fast is because of the lock up (60 degree instead of the usual 90 degrees), cock on closing, and finally the ergonomics of the bolt (having the bolt handle right by the trigger).

With a P14 I am personally able to do 22rds a minute at 100m on a round black target. The P14 has a 90 degree lock up and isn't as fast and a Enfield. When I gave my buddies Enfield a go I did 24rds without much practice on the Enfield. The way to get these high rates of fire is to always keep your hand on the bolt and to use your middle finger (or in my case my ring finger) to fire the trigger.

[chuckchili]

These rifles cycle fast so why not do it?

[muffett.2008]

Cinders, those records were beaten in later years, suggest you re read a thread of mine called" Research and Busting the Myth"

[Peter Laidler]

Hey Merlin. My trusty old and much loved Norton Commando will do 120mph (on a dark night on the M4) but because it is a grand old lady now, I know she can, she knows she can show her teeth and her Norton growl - and I don't want or need to flog it to death, I just keep it to sensible speeds and might just open it up occasionally. Just like an old No4. To be honest, it doesn't have to prove itself....... in fact it doesn't have to prove anything. Just my take on things

[Ridolpho]

Happy New Year to all! Peter- My '72 5 speed Bonneville will certainly top 100 but by 85 or 90 it already feels like it's revving itself to death. It's one previous owner tells me he used to cruise at 100 but I suspect his speedo was a wee bit generous or his vision distorted by large amounts of cheap beer. Regarding the high speed cycling of Lee Enfields, I see funny movies on youtube where the operator slams the bolt back and forth like a lunatic but then carefully pauses to squeeze the trigger with middle finger strangely cocked. I believe the idea of this middle finger pull is to arrange it such that the trigger is pulled almost automatically as you close the bolt- no pause for aiming. Check out page 92 in the big Skennerton book- shows a device that automated this installed on a MLE carbine. Personally, just as I won't cruise at 100 on my triumph, I won't abuse any of my rifles on the pretext that the gophers on the range are charging me.

Ridolpho

[Eaglelord17]

Regarding the high speed cycling of Lee Enfields, I see funny movies on youtube where the operator slams the bolt back and forth like a lunatic but then carefully pauses to squeeze the trigger with middle finger strangely cocked. I believe the idea of this middle finger pull is to arrange it such that the trigger is pulled almost automatically as you close the bolt- no pause for aiming.

You also have to remember the whole point in the Mad Minute is to get as many accurate rounds down range as possible, not just rounds down range. Generally speaking with the sling tight and your body in the prone the rifle doesn't move much, but you still have to snap shoot on target. It is better to take a extra faction of a second and hit the target than to waste the round as that round lost was meaningless and will seriously effect your score.

[Strangely Brown]

. Generally speaking with the sling tight and your body in the prone the rifle doesn't move much,

The use of the sling is forbidden in the Mad Minute and any other SR"a" event of the period.

Quote: (Bisley Bible 1957)

The sling (if any) may not be used as an assistance for steadying the rifle.