Trapdoor ?'s pics..

[coneten]

A friend of mine took this off my hands. He measured the barrel..29.5 inches. Removed the wood and discovered that it had a long thin wooden shim under the barrel. The barrel had a P proof...it was re-barreled from 50-70.

[jmoore]

I always thought MOST 45-70 trapdoors were "bitsas". Been seeing more "correct" ones lately, though.

[m1903rifle]

I had one very similar. The stock was/is a musket stock with the corners of the flats rounded off to make it resemble a 45-70 stock. Remember that these companies were taking obsolete/scrap parts and making rifles to sell to the public. In many cases , they were trying to make the public believe that these "bitsa" rifles were newer models. Mine had 1884 stamped on the lock plate. The barrel channel had several layers of brown paper to take up the difference between the 50-70 and 45-70 barrels. Also , the rear sight was from some other type of rifle as was the cleaning rod.

[1886nut]

Thats surely a Bannerman parts gun. The lockplate was NOT made by SA.

Have a look at the 1884 trapdoor I have in the "For Sale" board for a completely correct trapdoor

[5MadFarmers]

I had one very similar. The stock was/is a musket stock with the corners of the flats rounded off to make it resemble a 45-70 stock. Remember that these companies were taking obsolete/scrap parts and making rifles to sell to the public. In many cases , they were trying to make the public believe that these "bitsa" rifles were newer models. Mine had 1884 stamped on the lock plate. The barrel channel had several layers of brown paper to take up the difference between the 50-70 and 45-70 barrels. Also , the rear sight was from some other type of rifle as was the cleaning rod.

I'm perplexed by that claim. More often than not the obvious answer is the correct one. Perhaps they simply turned out the gun in 1884? Thus stamped the year they did it as that was common practice on the muskets and early trapdoors? I don't automatically see an intent to deceive there. Less of a case can be made for stamping "Springfield" on them - let's call that "marketing." There is in fact a company selling stuff with that name today....

The lockplates were, often enough, shaved CW plates. Thus probably "made at Springfield" but not "reworked" there.

Odd trivia fact of the day: barrels on some of the "after-market" guns are more accurate than those made at Springfield.

Frasca/Hill started or contributed to this situation. Calling them "fraudulent" guns. The ones made at Springfield were in fact the "fraudulent" ones. I have the patents and lawsuits which establish that.

While I'm on a roll....

It is not accurate to harsh on Bannerman. Most of the "pristine" trapdoor and Krag rifles out there are in fact "Bannerman" guns. Bannerman bought them in lots from the government and then sold them. Yes, they assembled guns from parts, but they retailed the originals. I have the records for them buying some of the scarcer trials guns (Ward-Burtons, etc).

In fairness to Bannerman, carbines sold better than rifles. If Bannerman was completely retail driven, there would be very few trapdoor or Krag rifles out there. "Profit" would dictate converting them to shorter editions as those sold better. In addition to selling the bulk of this stuff, the Bannerman concern was in fact interested in the history of it. He retained stuff in his catalogs long past the time it was gone just as a historical reference.

We all owe Bannerman. Every time I browse through one of the Fuller books I say thanks.

Feel free to disagree.

[coneten]

My friend is losing his eyesight and described the shim as wood..almost like a veneer. I bet he was handling the brown paper instead. I will certainly keep a closer eye on any trapdoors I encounter in the future. The guy I bought it from thought it was a"transitional" or "proto type". Someone else chimed in with "VMI cadet rifle because they wanted the US markings removed after the Civil War. I did read that here in Kentucky there are supposed to be a number of ex-West Point trapdoors that were refurbished and ended up in Kentucky military schools..KMI for one.

[musketshooter]

As previously stated by others, you have a TD that was assembled around to the turn of the cnetury for sale as a "near Springfield". The lock was condemned and sold for scrap. Here is a picture of another identical one that shows the C (for condemned) stamped on the back of it.