This is a VERY NICE Civil War Rifled Musket.

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Originally Posted by gew8805

Musketshooter, I don't see any Tru Oil on the stock? Over the last 40 years I have looked at hundreds of military muzzle loading firearms and I've seen many that were refinished and more that were not. That one just appears to be a well maintained gun that has been taken care of and the grain filled with linseed oil and (dare I say it) dirt. The polish on the wood comes from constant handling in it's early days when it was an issue weapon and proper cleaning (not over cleaning) over a long period of time. Sorry to disagree, no offense intended.

I do agree with you valuation, $1,500 should be a good price but it may go for more, they have risen by leaps and bounds since I was an active collector. My first M1863 was in almost identical condition and I bought it at the then too high price of $175. ;) That was in 1971... It was a great shooter. :)

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I'll have to agree with Musketshooter on this one. There's no doubt in my mind that the stock on this musket has recently been refinished. I've been collecting and shooting muskets since I bought my first one in 1959, and I say without hesitation the the gloss on this musket stock is not the result of "constant handling" or "proper cleaning".

As far as value is concerned, even with the refinished stock, I would say that it would easily bring $1800, provided that the bore is in good condition.

I notice the cartridge box lid/flap doesn't appear to have either a US embossed in the leather or two slits/cuts in the leather were the oval US brass cartridge box plate had been afixed. Curious as to why not either are present unless I can't see them. Maybe used by a non Federal militia or am I missing some thing in the postings? Ray

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Originally Posted by conductor

I'll have to agree with Musketshooter on this one. There's no doubt in my mind that the stock on this musket has recently been refinished. I've been collecting and shooting muskets since I bought my first one in 1959, and I say without hesitation the the gloss on this musket stock is not the result of "constant handling" or "proper cleaning".

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Conductor, your experience collecting goes back about 10 years further than mine but.....

Your "hesitation" or no, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Of course, without handling the gun in person no one can say for certain but I can't see where there has been any Tru-Oil or any other new finish applied.

I will say though, IF (and that's a big "if") the finish has been destroyed by addition of new finish or other improper "restoration", the value will be in the value of it's parts, still well over $1,000 but much less than $1,800.

That being said, I still have no doubt, given the information we all have, that this is not a refinished gun but is completely original as it is.

:cheers:

The acceptance initials were put on after the rifle was completed. The initials appear to be under the finish on that one, and with both bands being on backwards, it has sure been apart by someone who didn't know what the U was for.

I recently acquired a Remington made musket. It is in even better condition and my concern is that it could be a reproduction. The acceptance marks, cartouches etc all appear correct to me. Any things that I should check?

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00061-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00017-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00024-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00081-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00072-1.jpg


https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...MG_00051-1.jpg

I now realize that I am currently unable to make a deal with the owner of this gun.
As this is not his area of expertise the seller’s expectations are totally unrealistic.
This musket is located in Canada which is a very different collecting environment for this type of collectable that if it was located in the U.S.

As far as the finish on the stock is concerned I also had some concerns regarding refinishing when I looked at my photos.

Most of my photos were taken quite quickly outdoors and I had to angle the gun to try and capture the various markings which may have over emphasized the lustre on the stock……I am not sure??
Different lighting can certainly play tricks with photos.

The fact that the barrel bands were incorrectly mounted raises an interesting question.

rayq

As far as the cartridge box is concerned, I sent the photos to two experts on the subject.
One of the fellows writes the books on this subject.

“Your cartridge box is an absolutely authentic, federal cartridge box of the fairly scarce pattern that was made without the rain flap. The army dropped it in, I believe, 1863 then reinstated it some months later. The lack of the US on the cover is just an oversight and, obviously, didn't cause it to be rejected by the inspector. A nice piece.”


Although a nice piece my principal focus was on the musket, if I could not make a deal on the cartridge box that would not have bothered me.
As it turned out both the musket and the cartridge box were priced beyond reason.

I don’t see the seller dragging these pieces to gun shows in the U.S. to try and achieve retail values.
I suspect he will own these pieces for a long time unless he develops a serious change of expectations.

The top photo shows the cartouches on the subject musket taken indoors.
The bottom photo I found on the internet and shows the cartouches on a gun that was described as “minty”.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...DSC07331-1.jpg

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...hisTypeI-1.jpg

David

A little more background on this gun and cartridge box.

I first saw this musket about 10 years ago very quickly and did not take a close look at it.

The current owner apparently bought it from an older gentleman that was a shooter and won this gun in some kind of black powder shooting competition. (Possibly explained by the amount of additional cartridges.)

When the current owner bought it …he was leaving the original sellers house when the seller said I have something else that goes with the gun….and he brought out the cartridge box.

The current owner (a dealer in WWI and WWII militaria) has no interest or knowledge in Civil War stuff.

It is very difficult to make a deal with a seller that says “make me an offer that I can not refuse”

His feeling is that the musket is worth at least $3,000 and the cartridge box is worth at least $1,500 in the U.S.

I think he is very concerned about under selling these pieces….he does not have a good comfort level regarding their value.

At that point I felt as though it would be a real uphill battle to make a deal…..so I backed off for now.

David

I don't think it's apt to run off, unless someone just has more money than sense and wants it, regardless. (There seem to have been quite a few of those types running amok, recently.)

It's still better than your usual rifled musket, and maybe y'all can come to terms one day- much more YOUR terms than his!


BTW, JamesB, it might be more appropriate to start a new thread, rather than coat-tailing on this one- your Remington is worth it's own thread! Plus, it will get more attention.

Thanks jmoore for your comments.

While going through the exercise regarding these two pieces, my principal objective was to try and determine how correct they might be…markings etc. as well as potential values.

I suspect there might be several values that may be relevant.

-To a collector-retail. (Gun shows etc)
-To a dealer –whole sale…the dealer is certainly entitled to make his profit mark up.

My experiences with some dealers;

What I would have liked would have been a straight forward answer ...a retail buyer might pay between x&Y.
I could afford to pay between a&b.

I know he is a dealer and he probably has much greater access to the eventual buyer than I do...and I understand and accept that fact.

One of the things I realized was how resistant certain dealers were to share their thoughts regarding retail values….it was like you were trying to steal their first born child.

Some became very belligerent…..sort of like they paid their dues in tracking the values of this stuff…..and they don’t give that info away.

It is like there is an unwritten law that many dealers subscribe to when someone asks a question regarding values.

With the Internet and the Auction sites this privileged info is much more transparent to the great unwashed public….now it becomes an element of trust, reputation and public feed back….it is much harder to hide if you burn your customers.

Part of what I was doing was to try and find the dealer(s) that I might deal with for my collection when the time comes to sell…..I told them as much.

I live in Canada and I have some decent CW pieces….I now know who I will NOT contact in the U.S.

A very few fellows were very open and these are the people that I think I will eventually deal with.

My life has been spent (43 years) in a service business, I have given thousands of hours giving advice that I never got paid for but it usually works out at the end of the day.

I find the dealer world in this field either feels that they have been greatly burned over the years….or are out of touch with how most businesses have to function these days.


As far as the two pieces shown above;

As much as buyer should do his homework….so should a seller….not always easy for people that have limited knowledge about this stuff.

The seller of these two pieces is not a neophyte…he is a very savvy dealer in a very different field….sometimes hard to make a deal with a guy that thinks he knows everything.


David

Perhaps I am just naive?

I never questioned the originality of the box just that it never had an oval plate on it. I'm sure some boxes may not have plates added but that would be unusual in my opinion except maybe for a non federal militia outfit. I feel it just may have been a surplus box and never in service. Ray