M47C 1944 No4 Mk1 "T" Sportster by Bubba's big brother...

I went to a local “1000 table” gunshow with friends who were in the market for a Garand, and having been about 100th in line when the doors open we had our ideal specimen in the opening minutes…I also found a cluster of Lee Enfields with this sporter as the low ticket item among them…

The good – The remaining principle parts show 1944 Shirley No4 Mk1 heritage and could have been a real T:
Clear “TR” marked on left wrist, “T” just above the ejector screw, “S” on the forward right receiver wall, Inspection stamps on the rear of the receiver at the butt interface and a scope number on the butt upper, with an “S” of “S51” peeking out of the leather cheek piece. All letters seem of the right size, age (relative to other surface finishes) and type. I double checked it at the show, took a deep breath and took the plunge (I bought enough of the rifle for the low asking price) – several other of the Enfield’s were already being inspected by other buyers!
When home I started photographing and first strip inspection and found several other M47C marks on various pieces, the rifle serial number on the upper edge of the butt (inside the socket). Uncovering the leather from the butt and revealing the full “S51” and finding the original cheek piece mounting holes – one with a shorn screw protruding. A little coaxing and work should restore the butt and add a repro wood cheek piece.
It seems a numbers matching rifle, however the wrist and barrel have a “1” prefix, where on the bolt it is an “F” – the rest of the serial is a match, including on the butt (also a "1" prefix) – is this a “Friday afternoon” deviation?:confused:
The barrel shows no sign of recent activity, it has sharp rifling with some darker patches – a sustained cleaning is planned – it’s first for some time..
The Lyman scope features a post and bar reticle with 4 power and is good condition – time to recycle!
It has a nice Mazak butt plate, but nothing in the locker!
It takes dummy rounds from stripper clips and cycles them nicely without issue to any function.

The bad – Clearly the scope pads are gone – regardless if real or repro! The receiver finish is worn and there are sanding? marks through the (parkerised?) finish that continue through the pad seats. I would not describe the finish to match the brunofixing of my 1945 example – any thoughts? The pads are not with the rifle, and as I shoot CMP and similar iron sight events, they may not be sought for a while. The front pad seems to have required a lot of machining to seat in collimation and has distinct mill swirls.
When I got the scope and bracket off and adaptor out of the rear battle sight I could remove the bolt and found a 0 size bolt head with around 20 degrees of overturn – I will look into fitting a new bolt head and tightening the build per Peter Laidler's instructions – it feels like it needs a strip, clean and light lube s it currently gives spring sounds and small “clicks” on cocking.
The hand guard has a plain trigger guard screw holding good pressure with a suitable collar, but no washer and the draws seem to be good – although not fully leveraged by the front bearing being missing – the barrel is touching the right hand side of the barrel channel in the hand guard and shows no sign of any pencil marks for tracing the serial number at H&H or any stamps on the forward top edge of the receiver wall – all will be replaced and missing parts sought to complete to original spec.
The seer seems to have been worked -there are also grind marks on the lower receiver at the wrist between the trigger guard crew lugs – and an additional spring worked into the trigger guard (to lower trigger pressure?).
The rear site is a Fazakerly and has an enlarged and tapped battle sight hole for the aperture bushing – a suitable replacement will be sought.

The ugly - The drilled and tapped scope mount is well done – but has put two holes in the receiver at the breech :mad:(about 6 turns deep) and one on in the charger guard…these may get grub screws – any thoughts on restoration options if I go for a full rebuild and refinish (later)?:help:
There additional stamped marks on the left receiver wall – “L3A1” and what look likes “ROF 53” – the leg of the “R” looks like it could have been a chipped punch, or is formed by a random “ding” and is really a “P”. I call shenanigans unless anybody can make sense of it!

I plan a slow restoration – first off is new front furniture and restored bedding – gives me time to also work on the bolt and confirm headspace, slug the bore etc.. before a test firing and if all is good a spell as a shooter (at whatever level it performs at: target / plinker) then maybe a more intense restoration.

Am interested in any other observations, guidance on restoration subjects posed above and a set of Badgers review panel icons for verification – whichever way it goes! Any signs of the scope per the number on the wrist in the world or historic record?

PS - Yep – they’re reproducing!:cheers:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by l1a1 breakdown

I went to a local “1000 table” gunshow with friends who were in the market for a Garand, and having been about 100th in line when the doors open we had our ideal specimen in the opening minutes…I also found a cluster of Lee Enfields with this sporter as the low ticket item among them…

The good – The remaining principle parts show 1944 Shirley No4 Mk1 heritage and could have been a real T:
Clear “TR” marked on left wrist, “T” just above the ejector screw, “S” on the forward right receiver wall, Inspection stamps on the rear of the receiver at the butt interface and a scope number on the butt upper, with an “S” of “S51” peeking out of the leather cheek piece. All letters seem of the right size, age (relative to other surface finishes) and type. I double checked it at the show, took a deep breath and took the plunge (I bought enough of the rifle for the low asking price) – several other of the Enfield’s were already being inspected by other buyers!
When home I started photographing and first strip inspection and found several other M47C marks on various pieces, the rifle serial number on the upper edge of the butt (inside the socket). Uncovering the leather from the butt and revealing the full “S51” and finding the original cheek piece mounting holes – one with a shorn screw protruding. A little coaxing and work should restore the butt and add a repro wood cheek piece.
It seems a numbers matching rifle, however the wrist and barrel have a “1” prefix, where on the bolt it is an “F” – the rest of the serial is a match, including on the butt (also a "1" prefix) – is this a “Friday afternoon” deviation?:confused:
The barrel shows no sign of recent activity, it has sharp rifling with some darker patches – a sustained cleaning is planned – it’s first for some time..
The Lyman scope features a post and bar reticle with 4 power and is good condition – time to recycle!
It has a nice Mazak butt plate, but nothing in the locker!
It takes dummy rounds from stripper clips and cycles them nicely without issue to any function.

The bad – Clearly the scope pads are gone – regardless if real or repro! The receiver finish is worn and there are sanding? marks through the (parkerised?) finish that continue through the pad seats. I would not describe the finish to match the brunofixing of my 1945 example – any thoughts? The pads are not with the rifle, and as I shoot CMP and similar iron sight events, they may not be sought for a while. The front pad seems to have required a lot of machining to seat in collimation and has distinct mill swirls.
When I got the scope and bracket off and adaptor out of the rear battle sight I could remove the bolt and found a 0 size bolt head with around 20 degrees of overturn – I will look into fitting a new bolt head and tightening the build per Peter Laidler's instructions – it feels like it needs a strip, clean and light lube s it currently gives spring sounds and small “clicks” on cocking.
The hand guard has a plain trigger guard screw holding good pressure with a suitable collar, but no washer and the draws seem to be good – although not fully leveraged by the front bearing being missing – the barrel is touching the right hand side of the barrel channel in the hand guard and shows no sign of any pencil marks for tracing the serial number at H&H or any stamps on the forward top edge of the receiver wall – all will be replaced and missing parts sought to complete to original spec.
The seer seems to have been worked -there are also grind marks on the lower receiver at the wrist between the trigger guard crew lugs – and an additional spring worked into the trigger guard (to lower trigger pressure?).
The rear site is a Fazakerly and has an enlarged and tapped battle sight hole for the aperture bushing – a suitable replacement will be sought.

The ugly - The drilled and tapped scope mount is well done – but has put two holes in the receiver at the breech :mad:(about 6 turns deep) and one on in the charger guard…these may get grub screws – any thoughts on restoration options if I go for a full rebuild and refinish (later)?:help:
There additional stamped marks on the left receiver wall – “L3A1” and what look likes “ROF 53” – the leg of the “R” looks like it could have been a chipped punch, or is formed by a random “ding” and is really a “P”. I call shenanigans unless anybody can make sense of it!

I plan a slow restoration – first off is new front furniture and restored bedding – gives me time to also work on the bolt and confirm headspace, slug the bore etc.. before a test firing and if all is good a spell as a shooter (at whatever level it performs at: target / plinker) then maybe a more intense restoration.

Am interested in any other observations, guidance on restoration subjects posed above and a set of Badgers review panel icons for verification – whichever way it goes! Any signs of the scope per the number on the wrist in the world or historic record?

PS - Yep – they’re reproducing!:cheers:

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That's just kind of sad. Good luck on your restoration.

Ugh. Hope you got it cheap.
Long road in front of you...

Henry,
Just a few off the top of my head observations:
It's certainly a real one & the serial should start with an 'F'.
The butt socket has been incorrectly restamped at some point.
The L-whatever it was & the other garbage stamped into the receiver either side of the 'T' is all spurious.
Has the barrel been shortened a little, or has the foresight block been moved forwards?
The holes in the receiver from the commercial scope mounts can be blanked off with grub screws & then covered over with weld (if done carefully), great care being taken to ensure the screw that is puddled over in the receiver ring is seated shallow enough NOT to interrupt the barrel threads (or you will never get the barrel out!).
The spurious receiver side wall markings could also be puddled with weld if done carefully, & then all made off. The weld will lead to variations in colour if you intend to blue, but if you phosphate & suncorite it (or use a similar paint to suncorite) it won't matter at all.

It is just the kind of restoration project I like. There is a lot to do but it is do-able if you have the time & patience. I am shortly picking up a L42A1 that has had similar treatment & I'm really looking forward to getting to grips with it.

ATB

"I will look into fitting a new bolt head and tightening the build per Peter Laidler's instructions"

tightening the build?

Snipershot - not so sad now its in rehab - I used all my luck finding it tho!
Limpetmine - Price was typical of a wall-hanger in this part of the US - it will keep me off the streets and happily tinkering - with a doable budget.

Roger - Many thanks as always for your guidance and support - will do exactly as you say. Good eyesight by the way! - the barrel is cropped to remove bayonet lugs and re-crowned nicely - the foresight block is in its original position so standard furniture is planned.

ssj - Need to make sure its not a wall-hanger and set it up to achieve all it can = locking lugs bear evenly when blued, CHS gages are on the way, bolt head overturn is a little much and I will look to install one which aligns with the long rib (or slightly over) = firing forces transfer onto bolt body face etc and off of the threads. Striker lift is 0.030" and the striker protrusion is 0.048". So for the bolt head swap I am thinking of calling by Sarco and trying a few - probably the closest I can get to a "tray full of bolt heads!". I was thinking of which dimensions would control bolt head overturn, and after a search - drawings are elusive and it seems it involve thread start indexing / tolerance - which few vendors can measure to sell me "the right bolt head" so will plan to swap and test unless this can be clarified / cleared up.

Also found that the trigger job has resulted in a massive pressure / single stage experience - time for a new sear... (and another one of Peter's "how to"s)

Thanks again to all for the support, guidance and excellent resources - will post (brief) updates when I can!

As found the Field No Go gauge was just rejected by the bolt in the action (all others closing). The dealer I first visited had a few bolt heads, but not the equivalent of a "tray" - I did find a No2 bolt head which reduced overturn (still want to make it tighter) and now just grazes the SAAMI No Go Gauge:)

The only trigger parts to come my way are "S"avage marked and are now installed - soft single stage pull in place of the killer snap it had previously. Also improvised a front fiber bearing to set the barrel in the center of the channel in the shorter length forearm and better set up the front trigger guard screw and collar.

Had a chance to shoot it and all went well - pulling 1" groups of 2 with adjustments to front sight - didn't go too crazy with rounds down range with the stock the way it was.

When I got home the mail had dropped off the fore end kit I was waiting for - if I had no plans to shoot it would have been a while longer (Murphy) :rolleyes:

So set to the front end - a 1950s beech set - stained a little darker by the PO, the draws are great, a little work to the front bearing and cap for clearance and right channel relief and its on its way! The front sight had also been moved 0.5" rearwards by, so this was put back into its required position for full wood. With the bolt and fore end behaving I could fettle the trigger back to achieve a two stage pull - not bad for an afternoons work! The replacement cheek piece is still in the mail - the original holes have been prepped (removal of sheared screw / wood filler) and a pair of authentic steel slotted screws selected from my hardware stash.

So now the muzzle barley clears the front sight protector - I also have the neutered end of a No4 spare (bubba does not throw these away - but offers them for sale). What thoughts are there to graft the end of the barrel back, reinstating length and bayonet lugs? - albeit with a relieved ID back to the existing crown..I have discussed this with a couple of forumers privately but answers / experience is short, so this should be shared!... the thinking so far = turn tight stepped shoulders on each - braze / weld - counter-bore?

Already looking much better.

As it's anyway a restoration, I'd put in a barrel from another No. 4 rifle. Little work compared to fix the muzzle with the part you have, aswell as that most probably will be a big influence upon the precision.

It worries me a tad when I hear this talk about a 'field no-go gauge' You could be barking up a non existent tree there. There are only TWO CHS gauges for the No4 series of rifles. They are .064" GO and .074" NO GO.

You could graft the muzzle end on as I have before but to do a proper job, you've still got to remove the barrel so if it were me, I'd replace it anyway with a good used as suggested by Promo. I know....., I know......, the purists and originality fiends out there (there is another less polite term for them in my book.....) will cringe but we replaced barrels every day of the week without a thought for all this originality guff!

If you are going down the graft a new muzzle on it then I would bore out the new muzzle section to .315" so that the exiting bullet does not touch it. Now machine off the foresight lug area of the original barrel to 3/4 barrel diameter and bore the new muzzle section to suit for depth and diameter. Sweat in place and using a surface plate while still at melting point of solder, adjust the new muzzle section/foresight protectors to accurately align with backsight. I have done it a couple of times, last time to resurrect a sporterised No7

The bullet will exit the original muzzle 2" further in of course but the barrel will weight and act the same as original* - which is all you want!

* theoretically it won't but in practice it will be so close as to make no appreciable difference I feel.

The real problem you face is fitting up a set of pre-drilled pads to match up with the holes in the body! If it was me, I'd be starting again with UN-drilled pads! Easier in the long run I'd suggest.

Bubba and Daughter Inc. got this one.......
Attachment 52141Attachment 52142Attachment 52143

Yes, just sleeved one like this with the join half way through the foresight lugs, and the stub bored to .325 to be damn sure it doesn't go flying off. 400° Loctite and you're done. Could Loctite on the foresight block for a little more insurance too, but I won't.

When ever I read "SAAMI" gauges I cringe in respect to the .303 British cartridge. Other than the GO .064 which is the same as MoD specification, they are useless when it comes to gauging a LE rifle, PERIOD! There is a mindset in the USA that these 100+ year old design, rimmed cartridges that transitioned from black powder to cordite to nitro can be tightened up and turned into match grade specification. In other words, it ain't never gonna happen!! There are so many other factors involved in the LE design that are pertinent to good accuracy. Please don't over headspace these rifles. Buy your gauges from Arrowmark Tool and Gauge in Australia or have Forster custom make you a .074 here in the USA. Forget the coin gauges too. I've had countless rifles through here that were supposed to be out of specification and sent by folks using coin gauges. Guess what? When I put real military spec gauges in them, they were fine. Make sure the bolt assembly is fitted correctly, it passes the .074, then shoot and enjoy instead of worrying yourself about issues that don't exist. Steel helmet on and ready to duck.

You're dead right Brian............. DO NOT over CHS the rifle. But you'll talk until you are blue in the face...........

Surpmil also makes a good point in his thread. You can sleeve the new muzzle anywhere along the foreesight block band lugs and use the existing lugs to accurately align the part lugs of the new muzzle section. Note 'accurately' align as this is important. Additionally, this way, you won't see the join either.

Thanks for the info and guidance folks!:thup:

As far as this CHS goes, I should have said: passed the Mil Go Gage and Failed the Mill No Go. I have a 4 piece set of gages that cover Mil and SAAMI. Most of the bolt heads I had to choose from so far for this rifle put me back where I started with a failed Mil No Go. The one I selected was a length outlier - it sits around 0.005" clear of the Mil Go gauge - I hope that is not over CHS-ing (if so I have "metal off" options). No bid to create target accuracy here - just safety first! As found the bolt could not be removed from this rifle due to the battle sight reducer and scope. - it probably had not been out in some time....so CHS was the order of the day and when refitted it liked the HXP I fed it! I still want to reduce the overturn..eventually... Thanks for the gage source tips!

Thanks for the muzzle resto tips, There seems to be progressive approach to keep me occupied and off the streets:
1 - shoot as is and check precision....could leave it at that if it is anywhere near "tight"!
2 - graft on the resto piece - machine matching steps, use foresight lugs for alignment, sweat or loctite in place (the latter for me as I am a metal-melty-welder type - need crayons to hit any other temps).:madsmile:
3 - if either of the above are astray replace with a good used whole barrel (thanks Promo) - 4 - tackle pad and scope bracket colimation after all the barrel work.

Will look into untapped pads - thanks Peter! I understand about the "originality folks" - my mindset for this one is "what would happen at FTR" - I never add stamps or marks to make up or correct - I do keep original parts with a rifle if they are significant (this one would keep its barrel around if changed).

Warren - thank goodness all those "lumps and bumps" are gone from the top of that action - much smoother looking! :( Gotta think like Bubba to track him.

Mikesm44 - feels and smells better too - love the smell of BLO in the morning!

Brian - look for a Kevlar lid, and add medic insignia - you're here to help!:cheers:

As long as it passes the .074 you're good to go.

I used to have a Kevlar but it belonged to Uncle Sam and I had to turn it in! Now all I have is a Canadian WWII steel helmet with the crackle finish and an original German Paratroop helmet that actually fits!!

---------- Post added at 11:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:33 AM ----------

Got the Luftwaffe K98 to go with the helmet too but much prefer a good old No.4!! ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Warren

Bubba and Daughter Inc. got this one.......
Attachment 52141Attachment 52142Attachment 52143

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Looks like the pads were salvaged recently or did Bubba take those as well?

I had a chance to shoot the rifle at a local CMP match at the weekend (I took my SLR along as a back up plan). So it now has an upper band and cheek piece to complete this stage of the build and 5 or so test shots after the CHS work - plenty ready to have a go at targets! Bright sunny day, mid 70s F, no wind.

In the 8 minute prep period, I could get a read on its sights at 100yards and have a go at any required adjustments.... With the ladder at its lowest setting (bottom stop) it printed about 2 feet high using HXP ammo. I did a quick bit of ready math and decided to change out the front sight blade for a 0.045" taller example. A little commotion as the hammer and drift were produced, a quick chat with the safety officer and I was on my way (the SLR was right there...). So blade in, a couple of minutes remaining and a handful of shots - I got it pretty close - 8 inches above POA and 2 inches right - close enough for gits and shiggles!
The rest of the line up featured AR15s and a Garand - two of which were seasoned CMP shooters....still didn't pull out the SLR.

In slow standing I shot a personal best of 78/100, only pulling one shot out of the circles for a miss - 9" group excluding that. I had a basic web sling and used it as a hasty sling throughout the remainder of the shoot - no front trigger guard screw swivel yet. A decent show for seated rapid - all shots off in 70 seconds - pulled another out of a 4.5" group - the same in rapid prone all 10 in 4.5 group this time. Finally slow prone saw me trying to Kentucky windage the shots to the bullseye somewhat successfully.

It cycles great, really likes the rapids, but got a little hot and gave some heat shimmer - need to re-black the rear sight to cut reflection. Scored in the 350s (out of 500) but secured top score for this meet. Not bad for about 6 weeks of ownership at 1/3 of the budget of the rifles it bested!:D I am pretty happy with the new fore end and bedding (proof in the pudding) so I treated it to some stain and a set of original scope mount pads - these will wait there turn for now though. The SLR will have to wait for another day...:cheers:

Just back together after staining the fore end and prepping the scope pads for looks and ultimatley assembly (spacers under the screw heads to adjust length until I can get a bracket to set and size them). Will be developing some handloads and testing them against Britt Mk7 for a return to CMP with the ladder sight (battle sight now ground off). I may bite the bullet soon on the muzzle length restoration...slowly, slowly...

You're gradually getting there l1a1. I agree it's better not to rush these restoration jobs. You'll have a nice piece of history that's well worth owning as well as fun to shoot when it's finally done. Good work!

ATB.

P.S. Forgot to mention that my own restoration of a butchered but genuine L42 is also coming along nicely. It came to me from Germany with a lot of help from fellow forummer Promo, & had sadly been got at by Bubba's German cousin Ludwig Von Bubba. But as with your restoration I'm getting there. In fact it's turning out so well I'm going to keep it!

I also have an original "T" that Bubba shortened and added a commercial front sight block. In my example the barrel is a bit "rough" inside - so I'm anxiously awaiting the availability of new barrels to get the beast restored.

Don't forget JimmieZ that nowadays, while we CHS and run-gauge the barrel, thats ALL we do. But if it's a bit rough, we let the sniper tell us if it's inaccurate. Some seemingly perfect barrels shot like pigs while a 'rough' barrel like yours shoots like a dream. Food for thought........

So have now blacked the rear sight and tried and built a couple of handloads and then shot them with a friend and my son in the tail end of hurricane whotzitsname? - conditions f'ing horrible - strong, variable, gusty winds - this was meant to be for elevation only..

Ladder sight raised one click off its bottom stop, point of aim BDC bullseye.
1971 HXP - upper group of 5 - about 3"dia where I expected it from my last shoot.
S&B case, S&B primer, 38g Varget, Sierra 180g FBSP prohunter - 3" group all in the black :) will count clicks to reach out further..
37g Varget version of the above - not so nice, even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then ;)

I will rummage around to build a set of 60 +spares cases conditioned for neck size, length and weight (volume) and then give it a whirl at the next CMP meet :) I dont think I have anough Privi - but will neck anneal the S&B lot and neck size only.

Some are good to look at, others to casually play (clean), then the right ones go into the woods with you.. :cheers:

38gns of Varget behind 180s is just over the minimum load. Go to ADI powders and read up on 2208 which is Varget. I also suggest you use a chronny of some sort. I would also caution the use of S & B brass. privi or rem have a better track record.

But at what range are those groups L1A1?

Thanks Bindi! will do.

Peter - 100 yards from a bench forward hand on a sandbag, no sling (its too tight for my immenseness).

" I would also caution the use of S & B brass. privi or rem have a better track record. "
Several people have said this but,

For the last season I shot 20 x S&B, 20 x 1943 and 20 x Winchester Brass while target shooting. Powder loads varied but mostly 38Gr 2208/Varget. All 20 S&B are still OK, I have had 5 x 1943 brass cases expire and 4 x Winchester cases, No S&B have expired. So at least 3 full re-sizes and at least double that Lee neck resizes. I now have 20 x privy as well (bought 100). We'll see how they go but apart from taking off the crimp the S&B seem to be doing well so far for me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ssj

" I would also caution the use of S & B brass. privi or rem have a better track record. "
Several people have said this but,

For the last season I shot 20 x S&B, 20 x 1943 and 20 x Winchester Brass while target shooting. Powder loads varied but mostly 38Gr 2208/Varget. All 20 S&B are still OK, I have had 5 x 1943 brass cases expire and 4 x Winchester cases, No S&B have expired. So at least 3 full re-sizes and at least double that Lee neck resizes. I now have 20 x privy as well (bought 100). We'll see how they go but apart from taking off the crimp the S&B seem to be doing well so far for me.

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There is a box of 20 S & B here somewhere with 2 spit necks and 1 split shoulder the rest unfired. Winchester cases head separation on second firing (under sized poor quality brass). My go to work rifle is a No5 with a generous chamber well within head space specs. About a 100rds a week all 2208 / Varget more than 38gns. I use a Lee neck collet die , FLS around 7 or 8 scrap when the need for the next FLS. I also run a wildcat 303/243 this rifle sorts the wheat from the chaff as who makes good brass.
HXP brass is the best out there.