EU Referendum Tomorrow....

Ladies & Gents with permission from Doug (badger) he has given me the green light to post this thread. (as its not political as such but a yes or no vote for all in the UK)

Anyone in the UK will know its a big day tomorrow 23/06/16, we get the chance to vote to remain or leave the European Union.

To some its an easy decision to others its quite hard, as we can't predict the future, think most of us (on here) have made our decision long ago, but for others who are on the fence then the clip or link below will give some facts that are not given in the leave or stay campaigns.....

So if your other half or friends are unsure then pass on this link or tell them about it, I found it very interesting and a real eye opener regarding the commission.

Myself I,m an out man and have been for a long time I,d like to see the "Great" put back in Great Britain, but this youtube clip has given me another reason to put my cross in the out box tomorrow.

Please I don't want this to be political I asked Doug if I could post it and he agreed, so lets stick to Milsurps rules etc. its not a discussion regarding our beliefs or politics its probably one of the biggest votes we will have to make in the UK.

The EU Referendum Toby Young, Brexit Facts Not Fear - YouTube

Truly from the bottom of my heart I wish your great nation success in its vote.

I'll be glad when it's ALL over... all the fear stories from all parties, no positive leadership from anyone
I would like all our elected representatives to stand up and WORK for our benefit. Not wait and react to what comes out of Europe

(Good to see that the referendum is NOT legally binding��)

I hope to wake up on Friday feeling refreshed in a newly liberated Britain

I hope we all have a fresh start, away from countries that have abused us long enough already as one of the richer nations in the union. I agreed to the Common Market not the EU and control from Brussels.
We have helped poorer nations for too long, including those who have natural disasters that occur on a reguler basis. How often do you see EU money sent to help those who were flooded out for instance in the last 12 months in UK natural disasters..........none! It all seems to have been a one way ticket I'm afraid and the reason why I have had a gutful.

£1.6 million a day is what we as a country put into Europe, if that figure is to be believed!!

That alone, in the knowledge it is probably a lot higher, will give every Policemen/Firemen/Nurses/Doctors and our Armed Forces guys and gals a good wage to live on, and hopefully they can be provided with the right kit for the job for once in 40 years!!

Fed up with the lies and retoric, lets just do it, and stand alone as we always seem to anyway since this all started, and then perhaps Brussels will leave us alone on the gun lobby side of things too;)

To me the "remain" side is all about money which is a concern however isn't "freedom" worth the risk? I have talked to a few people who live in the UK and by a slight margin the majority support "leave" and I agree with them.

I have read the many Dutch have had enough and are demanding a referendum, interesting.

Not my battle being a Canadian however possibly it is, I honestly believe too many people in power believe in a One World Government.

The Dutch like us, want out because they have seen what is coming and what they'll be expected to finance and support in our grand childrens futures!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If the UK votes to leave the EU, I will go for my British citizenship (father was born in the UK so I can get my citizenship just by applying). If not, well, I don't see enough of a need to do so.

I would vote out also if I was able to. Quite literally the EU benefits only the poorer member countries at the expense of the more successful. Then too, the EU ramrods its politically correct multi-cultural agenda - like it or not - down the throats of every man and dog.

Guys,
You know whats coming, as they lose control of the streets in Europe with regards to incidents and weapons control from those "unknowns" passing through their countries, they will hammer the legal and sensible "Gun Lobby" like us, to a point where there will be no more sport or weapons of any description held by the public legally.
Thats what the European Parliament want over us now and are fighting for!
How would Canadians and Americans feel, if outside countries tried to interfere in the same, thats why I'm OUT, its not their place to even consider it? It is for the relevant Parliament of that country to decide, not some hotch potch gathering of ill informed knee jerk idiots!

Thanks for replies, found the clip last night, but my jaw was dropping when he was on about the commission ....... nothing to do with Wainright's or the Rum:D

Gil I think its a lot more we send, some state £350 million a week and how much we get back I don't honestly know.

Anyway you mentioned about gold crowns Re phone box so thought this was quite fitting as HM was in the area today so thought I'd better get these done before she popped in for tea.

Another reminder of who is our boss.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...fawz4cry-1.jpg

look at this

I agree with all the above, been doing my bit to gently encourage everyone I know to vote leave, thankfully most people I know with a spine will vote out...... Plus I've got £40 on it so fingers crossed.

I don't understand why such a so much has been made of the possibility of Turkey joining the E.U. with the associated potential migration to the U.K.. What about Albania??? I don't know if they still are but they were pretty much the poorest country in Europe and if they join the E.U., as they most likely will at some point, it would be little surprise if virtually the entire population under 40 up sticks and head for the U.K.. Who can blame them?

Hope it works out for all the members across the pond. Can't see sovereignty being a bad thing.

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Originally Posted by philb

look at this

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If that list is correct its mind numbing.

wow. I had no idea of the power of the European union over member countries. I can see why it has come to a vote.

I have no stake in this either way but will point out that the posted video is a beautifully crafted piece of 'leave' propaganda. not subtle and camouflaged enough to be a masterclass in propaganda IMO but very well thought out and executed never the less.

He is the Editor of the Spectator magazine which always says it as it is, and he has been a leave man right from the start, because he has, in the paper over the years since 1973 proof of where we were and are now!
I do remember thinking in 73, do I really want to be part of a European organisation, working alonside the Germans and French who we have been at war with for over a 1000 years. I couldn't get my head round the fact that, we, as part of NATO needed to protect our northern flanks in Germany and yet the French wouldn't let any marked British Army vehicles travel through their country, that is still the case TODAY!
Unbelievable, I hear you retort, but a fact, so how can we ever get on side by side whilst we can't agree over something as important as that...........and don't start me off about French drop of the hat strikes :surrender::lol:

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Originally Posted by henry r

wow. I had no idea of the power of the European union over member countries. I can see why it has come to a vote.

I have no stake in this either way but will point out that the posted video is a beautifully crafted piece of 'leave' propaganda. not subtle and camouflaged enough to be a masterclass in propaganda IMO but very well thought out and executed never the less.

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Henry, There is a lot more propaganda out there, its just the point he makes regarding the Commissioners ..... think he has done his homework on that one, haven't heard the Remain campaign mention this..........

If you look at other Countries set to join, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey......... they will be wanting a slice of the cake, so our total we send to the EU will soon increase, so a further drain on all of us tax payers.

Today it was mentioned that the UK population (the ones we know of) was 65.1 Million, it will rise with immigration, as a London taxi driver said to me last year " You can only get a pint in a Pint pot"

Very good video I thought. What was that catchy line he said that kind of summed it all up.... No taxation without representation!
I''ve heard that before somewhere 😏

please don't think i'm trying to discredit the article by calling it propaganda (or pick a fight with anyone here). I don't know enough about the EU and how it works to form an opinion on it or britians position in it.

i'm using the word propaganda not so much in the oxford dictionary's definition as in the one given on Wikipedia, which is worded far milder and with less negativity attached.
i'm normally rather cynical when it comes to anything with a 'political' message and we are currently in the leadup to an election here in Australia, it is a particularly messy election too. more so i'm in a seat being contested by the current deputy primeminister and an independent candidate (that held the seat for the previous two terms with 70-80% primary vote) who has come out of retirement specifically to try to knock off the deputy pm. both lay claim to the same demographic so the campaigning locally has gotten really brutal and everywhere you turn it is in your face. hence i'm even more cynical than usual.

as I said I don't have a position on the britian/eu vote, but i'll pull the video apart to point out some of the ways I think he is working things to emphasise his point of view. as well as why I think it is well crafted with the amount of different methods used.
he is orating it at first in the style of the great british documentary makers, using his tone, facial expressions, the camera angles, his dress and the background of an oldworld styled library to imply he has great knowledge (and impartiality).
note the emphasis he puts on the word 'facts' at 15 and 24 seconds, seeming to say 'fact'=truth. steamrolling the concept that a fact, while being true, can be manipulated by what facts are presented and what are not. the work 'fact' will continue to be repeated throughout the presentation to remind the viewer that what is being said is truth.

at 30-40 seconds he gives the depth of knowledge given in the tomes shown behind him then presents himself as a keeper of that knowledge.

at one minute on he drops in some facts, highlighted in text form to show it to be true and give credibility to all his future statements as being equally researched, based from documentary sources. one is even labelled fact no2!

about 2:09 I love the eyebrow raises on the word 'important' (repeated at add emphasis)

2:13-2:30 we get a nice visual depiction of what he is saying, times to match the concepts as he introduces them.

2:30 on, we get some wild eyebrow action along with facial expressions and head tilt/straightening to add seriousness when needed and mock the works of the politicians of the time as he repeats them.

3:20, slight pause then arm out and lean in to the audience.

now we get some more info with nice supporting examples. followed around 4:00 by a little more informally given statement about the former chancellors views (note the change in body language and camera angle).

the two examples given are about cheap beer (the EU attacked our beer!) and lower taxes on energy saving equipment (surely energy saving equipment is a good thing so what are the EU?)

some more stats then 4:38-4:42 note the change in the level of language when speaking from the viewpoint of 'the defenders of the EU' and how the wording infers they don't care about the dismal rates of success in the courts. he is now dividing people into us and them, placing himself and the viewer on the 'us' team and painting 'them' as having negative qualities and dropping names of politicians on 'their' side.

5:00 he repeats again for emphasis then asks the viewers to check his credibility 'don't take my word for it', it is in a documentary so has to be true... pity the clip is cut so short we don't know if the figures given are about the EU-british laws or the percentage of dog owners who pick up poo on a sunday.

6:15 we move outside to a more open informal location and so the tone and language changes getting more and informal. (we are now part of the inner circle!) the comments on the EU and how it works get more and more disparaging.

7:31 'great country!' starting to introduce the concept of national pride and doing so with someone elses words in a clip, nicely done that man.

and so on and so forth.

again i'm not shooting down his message, i'm sure there are pro EU pieces using exactly the same methods to try to draw in the undecided. I find it interesting to pull things like this apart and watch for how people are trying to alter the way others see the world.

.......... And a good job that he is doing it in a propagandist way too! Most of us are fed up to the back teeth with the pro Euro side.........

Absolutely Peter, sick to death with bullshitters...............just give us the facts.
If it turns out the REMAIN lot have won it tomorrow,. all I ask is that they learn from their mistakes and put back Border Controls and the 2000 officers jobs at our ports, and reinstate the offshore Border Agency boats they chopped this year.
I saw the cheeky bugger who bought it cheap at £100K fully kitted out, is trying to sell it back to them for three times the amount because they made " an error of judgement in premature sale" :lol::lol: smats of aircraft carriers without planes to me :lol::lol::
The Former HM Customs Cutter Sentinel - Field Textiles Ltd

If we do pull out of europe, (hopefully we do) then the next step is political and constitutional reform for government and the political elite. We can no longer have the type of politics we have been having in the last ten or more years. How do we know that the next government who comes to power is not going to sell us down the river again on a silver platter to the highest bidder. There should be accountability, rules and laws for those at the top who lie to the people and treat us with contempt and who waste tax payer hard earned slog like tap water, and get away with murder like Blair and Cameron. I think the people living here know what i mean. Under EU rule we cant do anything, if we win out then hopefully the momentum will make people push for the next step, its long overdue.

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Originally Posted by henry r

please don't think i'm trying to discredit the article by calling it propaganda (or pick a fight with anyone here). I don't know enough about the EU and how it works to form an opinion on it or britians position in it.

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Henry,

Can see where your coming from and will certainly be no fight, but regardless how he does it, I thought it was well presented..........lets face it, he wasn't going to cobble it together and with blokes like that and other editors of such publications they don't care much for politicians, remember the Line in the Film Hunt for Red October, they are in a big meeting and at the end Jack Ryan is approached by a senior member " Mr Ryan, I'm a politician so that makes me one of the biggest Liers there is" that has always summed it up for me.:D

Like some here, I'm a Queen and Country man and would like to keep it that way, Be ruled by our rules which a lot I don't agree with but If we stay the next thing we know we will have to start driving on the wrong side of the road....... I,d up sticks and be heading your way when that happens. ( has been on the cards for sometime, I prefer NZ its the boss who wants Oz)

It will be a most interesting television spectacle tomorrow to see David Cameron trying to give an explanation if Brexit win by a landslide; one would expect it to be at least enough to take the silly smile off his face.

No matter what the outcome there is a split in the UK that may never heal. NO ONE is going to be happy, it will be interesting to see how the winning side attempts to bring the losers back into the flock.

This entire episode was started out of people being fed up with the status quo...can't blame those people! Every gov't in the world is literally out of control, no longer listen to the electorate and deserve to be tossed, issue is the opposition often is a larger nightmare, a fundamental change is a must!

For those of us in the U.K. who are also involved in classic car/bike use and home restoration we had a problem with the E.U., some years ago, trying to ban the use/sale of cellulose paints and certain other types of paints that home restorers use for restoration purposes in the home workshop. It was similar in some ways to the current interference/fiasco from the E.U. concerning de-activated guns. The paint saga went rumbling on for many months and at one stage it was looking like an end to home resprays unless the home restorer wished to invest in water based paint spraying facilities costing a vast amount of money. Eventually a compromise solution was found and home restorers/classic specialists were allowed to carry on much as before provided they didn't go over a certain usage limit.

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

No matter what the outcome there is a split in the UK that may never heal. NO ONE is going to be happy, it will be interesting to see how the winning side attempts to bring the losers back into the flock.

This entire episode was started out of people being fed up with the status quo...can't blame those people! Every gov't in the world is literally out of control, no longer listen to the electorate and deserve to be tossed, issue is the opposition often is a larger nightmare, a fundamental change is a must!

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I have noticed that politics these days seems to be my side is right or you are a idiot. There is no comprising and usually the next party in undoes everything the previous party did (and when the next one comes in they do the same).

Rule Britannia (With lyric annotations) - YouTube


Playing in my house tonight.....


My 1/2 welch wife is glad for Wales and its contribution....to what I have no need to say, just listening to these lyrics and thinking.....


Britannia Rex

Well what can I say apart from " WERE OUT" :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

I don't think it was the clip I posted that swung the out in favour, but a Big thanks to Doug for letting me post it, also a big thanks for everyone in not getting too political.

A remarkable day, I thought it would be close but didn't expect that.....

My real concern in all of this I suppose, is that we do not return to what I experienced as a young soldier in Northern Ireland for 5 tours.............division, death and hatred on a mass scale there and at home on English soil. Tooooo many good friends lost for what?! I don't want to see my son going back there on that basis militarily.
20 years of relative peace has been a good time.

I wouldn't wish that on anyone, I will always remember those early seventies, but see a real urge from this morning, for Sinn Fein and others to start a process of a single Ireland and a Free State from UK rule bringing Ireland back as one country.
It goes a lot deeper than that, but hope I am wrong.
In a like minded sense, Gibralter will also find this next period of uncertainty really tough IMHO!!

Sincere congratulations to all for having the courage to vote to leave the EU. The road ahead may be rocky however you will prevail and be better off in the long run.

To you I raise a pint!

And the PM goes out as well.

Mike,
To be fair, he has done a good job, and true to his word he gave the British people this chance of a referendum.
Yes he steps down in October, but that was something he knew he had to do. He could also have resigned this morning, but he didn't. Strong but sad leaving speech this morning.
The results were close regardless, and shows a clear split here in Britain, but we should all ensure there is no division between us as a nation.

The markets will always be uncertain, thats a daily thing, but the £/$ was $1.50 at midnight and $1.35 later.
It will recover as egos repair and stability returns, and we'll still be the same people, dogged to the end, just fed up of being taken for granted, by those inside and outside of our land.
I do also believe other countries will re examine their positions, because it will be them that have to put in the defecite now that we are going out, when all the other former soviet states want a slice of the EU cake. Don't forget we will still be putting in £165k + every day for the next two years, as long as Article 50 is submitted soon!!

To be fair, and realistic Gil, I doubt very much whether the PM would have given us this referendum if it hadn't been for Nigel Farage and the massive fan-base of UKIP, gathered in from all parties, hadn't been dogging his every move

I notice that he saiud earlier this week that Britain wasn't a nation of easy quitters. And guess who's just quit?

You can always tell when a politician is lying. Their lips move............

Agreed................the biggest challenge for the country will be that we get the RIGHT leader to take us forward, someone like Ian Duncan-Smith, ex Army Officer who held and still holds a lot of credibility.

On a more humourous side, our Sergeants and Officers messes are strictly non-political. Last month at one of our lunches, the conversation turned to 'the referendum' where the Prime Minister and his 'remainers' were getting a bit of an earful for their scare mongering. The OC of the XXXXXXX XXXXXXX wing looked over and said '.....should we be doing politics here George....?' George replied, '.....It's not politics with me Tony, - it's personal!'

Typical:lol::lol::lol:

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Originally Posted by enfield303t

The road ahead may be rocky

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Certainly will be, but if we knuckle down and get on with it then I think will be fine, Gil mention's the markets ......... seeing the pound drop like a rock after the Sunderland vote was announced was certainly an eyeopener but a typical knee jerk reaction, the only other thing what dropped then was Adam Boltons jaw on Sky News.

Nicola Sturgeon didn't waste much time......think we were all expecting that one:banghead:

Anyway lets hope that the next leader can get a tight grip on the reigns and take us to an honourable exit that will benefit all.

Big Duke,
See your head banging the wall there, that will be the next thing, Sturgeon will want the Hadrians Wall built higher if she gets independence:banghead:

I didn't have a dog in this fight but followed all the news articles with interest. 95% of these articles were about the financial pitfalls of an exit. I'm glad to see that there are enough people who think some things are much more important than money.

Gentlemen,

My morning commute rock radio station was full of concerned babbling about the vote result, they seldom talk about anything of proper relevance, usually just inane chatter. Should Great Britain have wondered if it could still make a splash on the world stage, wonder no longer, to grab the attention of that station and fill them with political bewilderment is a sign of how far the echos of the vote traveled.

I hear lots of doom and gloom and adult tantrums about the vote result, but it sounds like Britain may once again belong to Britons. Were it my country in that situation I likely would have wanted the same.

All very good, and all the best in the years forward.

When people here ask me where I am from, I reply “England” and their reaction is always a smile. If I say “The UK” they get a blank look on their faces. “England” always gets a smile because people here like the country. Most have never been there, and it’s all one country to them. But you can tell they think well of England.

Wish you all the best.

~V~

Darren/Vincent,
Thanks for the impartial view from afar. It was coming, and those that are doing the moaning today about a "big mistake", are those that should either know better or couldn't be bothered to vote what their hearts were telling them to, regardless of age or persuasion.
Simple analogy is, we want to take back control of our own lives in some basic form, and control those things that appear to be lost to us, where simply complaining about change, seemed to fall on deaf ears.
Thanks in part to the threat to all parties by UKIP and Nigel Farage three years ago, David Cameron could see the writing on the wall if he didn't offer something.
He offered it, we took it, and here we are, still one nation and proud we had the balls to at least take it. If we have made an error of judgement, which I doubt as a nation, we stand by it and soldier on, and make the best of it.
At least we will be controlling the massive waste of money we currently experience IMHO!

If we in the U.K. wished to be governed by a European dictatorship we would have done some sort of deal with Hitler in 1940. Why anyone thinks we would in 2016 I have no idea???

I am going to view the hit to my 401K retiremant account as my contribution to the UKs independence from the NWO.
God save the Queen & Godspeed.

What a great day! I'm proud that Britain has had the courage to stand alone in defiance of the EU.
And if other nations follow our example, who knows we may just save Europe from itself..... Again.

I hear on the news tonight that the E.U. has called together all 27 other member states for a meeting next week to talk about us, the U.K, of which we are not invited to. Surely while we are still members of the E.U., as we currently still are, we are entitled to attend this meeting especially as it concerns our national interests. I would hope that our Government has the courage to send representatives to the meeting regardless.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

If we in the U.K. wished to be governed by a European dictatorship we would have done some sort of deal with Hitler in 1940. Why anyone thinks we would in 2016 I have no idea???

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Well said.

England will do just fine as she always has. The markets will stabilize and business will continue to be conducted. Now lets see if the same trend prevails here in the USA in November. It's sort of interesting how many of the issues are the same. Fingers crossed. Maybe there is some hope for what's left of the "free western world" after all.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Guys,
You know whats coming, as they lose control of the streets in Europe with regards to incidents and weapons control from those "unknowns" passing through their countries, they will hammer the legal and sensible "Gun Lobby" like us, to a point where there will be no more sport or weapons of any description held by the public legally.
Thats what the European Parliament want over us now and are fighting for!
How would Canadians and Americans feel, if outside countries tried to interfere in the same,

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It's been happening in the U.S. for years. The anti-gun bunch in Washington has been going behind our backs in a effort to get NATO to step in and force our government to ban the private ownership of gun in America. This all got started while Cigar Bill was in office in the 90's. It came to a head during George W. Bush's administration but thankfully he was a pro-gun Texan and had the balls to tell Nato in no uncertain terms that we didn't need them to dictate gun ownership policies in the U.S. That pretty much took the wind out of NATO's sails but the rest are still at it. Heaven help us if the Hilldebeast wins in November.

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Originally Posted by Brian Dick

England will do just fine as she always has. The markets will stabilize and business will continue to be conducted. Now lets see if the same trend prevails here in the USA in November. It's sort of interesting how many of the issues are the same. Fingers crossed. Maybe there is some hope for what's left of the "free western world" after all.

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It is encouraging and I hope the GOP wakes up and start supporting their candidate.

He has been successful so far because people are fed up with all the nonsense.

https://www.milsurps.com/images/impo...360385_n-1.jpg

I see 1.2Million people have now signed a petition which has been submitted to Parliament for a re run of the Referendum. WTF:banghead:

Its not a football match where the goal has been disallowed because you didn't like the way it was scored, and taken again, unbelievable!!

There is still 15 million plus to sign. The "Remains" At least you still have 17 million plus "Leaves" waiting on the other side!

Go ahead run the vote again, I'd put my winnings from the last one that the leave vote would win by an even larger margin. There must have been countless people put off voting leave just because of the economic fears being well stirred up, people that have huge concerns over immigration, security and the whole anti democratic thrust of Brussels. There's a lot of folks out there today wishing they'd had a little more courage and voted leave. One of the most interesting things to have happened on Thursday was that vast numbers of us voted that don't normally bother, The Father of a good friend mine, as an example, voted leave and it was the time he'd voted ever! he's in his 70's! It's been a shock to the establishment but the fact is that half this country has been shouted down and left with no voice by the neo liberal elite for 40 years plus. I think there's a lot more going on with this democratic reaction than just over the EU, that's why at times it's been a bit nasty. I've seen families split, friends falling out and arguing for weeks, I've got leftie mates not talking to me now☺️. This time each vote really mattered and we all knew it, unlike with our normal party politics where if you live in a staunch Labour Borough like me your voice is lost, never even seen a tory round these parts campaigning. But the Nation does now appear to be split down the middle, I hope we can heal fast and get on with moving forward, not sure the remain voters are in the mood for grasping any olive branches offered though. The coming months and years will be interesting to watch unfold.

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

I see 1.2Million people have now signed a petition which has been submitted to Parliament for a re run of the Referendum. WTF

Its not a football match where the goal has been disallowed because you didn't like the way it was scored, and taken again, unbelievable!!

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Its the just the panic factor Gil, thats all, balls already rolling.....The EU have basically stuck two fingers up at us as soon as the results were confirmed and are panicking themselves if it has a knock on effect to other countries.

The doubters need to look at Switzerland and Norway, its a slow process leaving and long way to go, people like Nicola Sturgeon (one half of the Krankies) are the ones that could damage things but think she has been told to hold back, there biggest importer is England, (Whiskey and tartan boxes of shortbread) if she goes ahead with a referendum and it backfires then she'll be on the dole as we can't send failed party leaders to the EU commission anymore.......

Think the news readers and reporters need to pull there finger out and start showing the good side of things instead of doom and gloom......

I reccon they'll try to hurt us over Gibralter too, that's a tender spot they'll help Spain exploit, We'll have to be very tough on that. What was it, 90 odd % of them voted remain over on the rock. Bet they use the "right to self determination" arguement on us like we do with the Falklands. One to watch.

My chuckle for the day was when I read about the Remains wanting a Do-Over.

:rolleyes:

How about we start a on-line petition that we don't want the referendum re-run? Its funny how people seem to want a re-run of a vote until they get the result they want. I heard on the radio this afternoon that some-one had signed the petition because they had only voted Leave as they hadn't expect them to win otherwise they would have voted Remain!!!

Earlier in this tread it was mentioned about the prospect of tougher gun controls being introduced into the U.S.A.. In the U.K. we have some of the toughest gun controls in the world yet we still have gun related crimes being committed. At first glance one may expect there to be a highly complex explanation for this but it is in fact very simple. Criminals who commit gun crime have no regard for the law so introducing tougher gun laws will not deter them from committing gun crime but it will penalise the law abiding citizen.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Earlier in this tread it was mentioned about the prospect of tougher gun controls being introduced into the U.S.A.. In the U.K. we have some of the toughest gun controls in the world

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Many anti-gun democrats in the U.S. strongly favor adopting British and Australian style gun laws here.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

yet we still have gun related crimes being committed

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Criminals who commit gun crime have no regard for the law so introducing tougher gun laws will not deter them from committing gun crime but it will penalise the law abiding citizen.

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Right. But either the anti-gun bunch is too stupid to realize this or else they just aren't willing to admit it. IMO, the anti-gun movement in the U.S really isn't about reducing crime at all but rather has all to do with disarming the law abiding citizens altogether so the government can impose absolute authority over us without fear of an armed rebellion.
All of us here know full well the gun bans are generally ineffective at stopping crime. Take Chicago Illinois for example, quite possibly the toughest city in America when it comes to gun laws. In 2015 Chicago had over 500 gun related murders, and so far in 2016 there has been 300. So much for gun control keeping firearms out of the hands of criminals............

Please don't get too political, this has been an interesting thread. [emoji1]

Thanks to the moderators for letting a bit of forbidden subject matter steam be vented in this thread. Thanks also to those of you directly affected by the situation for helping the rest of us understand the reality of the situation ,as the propaganda dished out by the media seems to be just that.

We have been very fortunate and Doug did agree, as it was not to be political based more of the in or out vote and the youtube clip I posted, its hard to talk about it with out some politics but nothing personnel about each other.

If anyone is on Facebook thats a different story (I'm not myself but the wife is) some hatred being vented on there at the moment....... mainly the youth of our society who have never seen the real world yet, only on a iPhone or iPad.

If the prospect of living under a dictatorship is so attractive to younger people why don't they go and live in mainland Europe in a E.U. country or if they wish to do the full monty North Korea??? Let those of us who wish to enjoy our hobbies in peace alone and without constant interference from outside.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

If the prospect of living under a dictatorship is so attractive to younger people why don't they go and live in mainland Europe in a E.U. country or if they wish to do the full monty North Korea??? Let those of us who wish to enjoy our hobbies in peace alone and without constant interference from outside.

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My number 4 (birth order) granddaughter is an 18 year old UNSW student. She's a brilliantly intelligent girl. However, like everyone else born since at least 1990, she has been educated to believe the progressive view of a utopian society, that nationalism is a dirty word and the cause of the world's evils, and a relativist morality. She, like everyone else born since at least 1990 has only known or experienced a multiculturalist and politically correct society. Her experience of government in Australia has been of one with a social engineering agenda. Plainly and simply, she doesn't know what she doesn't know, nor does her generation and older peers.

A slightly amusing aside in the run up to the E.U. Vote happened at work concerning one of my much younger work mates. There had been much discussion on the matter with most people saying that they would defiantly vote Leave. This young chap proudly proclaimed that he would be voting Remain and this was the first time he had voted. This had a few of us slightly older members of staff scratching our heads as to the reasons why until some-one thought to ask him if he had registered to vote.* The young lad hadn't a clue about the need to register in order to vote as he hadn't done so before and it was too late to register so he couldn't vote after all which we all thought was highly amusing.

*In the U.K. in order to vote you have to register and there is a cut off time before an election when it becomes too late to register in order to vote in that particular election.

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

*In the U.K. in order to vote you have to register and there is a cut off time before an election when it becomes too late to register in order to vote in that particular election.

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Same rules apply here. IIRC, Donald Trump's children were unable to vote in the NY primary for the same reason, they missed the registration deadline. Something similar happened to me in 2012, I moved to my current residence in April of that year and when the presidential election rolled around in November I went to cast my ballot only to discover I couldn't because I had neglected to update my address with voter registration. :banghead:

Here, in Texas, we don’t turn someone away if they haven’t registered to vote. They can cast what’s called a “provisional vote.” A check is then done and if they are eligible their vote is counted.

Here in the U.K. it's been less than a week since the Brexit/Leave vote won the Referendum Vote but as each day goes by almost, it seems, hour the calls for a second vote on the U.K. leaving the E.U. seem to grow louder. Voices calling for this second vote seem to come from the Remain camp, as would be expected, and include serving members of Parliament, at least one former minister in Margret Thatcher's Government and even the former Prime Minister and Peace envoy, Tony Blair. If we have a second vote and it goes the other way, as is a distinct possibility, what do we do then??? Obviously the Remain camp will say that is the vote that counts or do we have a 3rd Referendum vote and make it the best of 3???

If a similar situation arose in the U.S.A., Canada or Australia* how would public opinion react if the Status Quo lost a vote but then turned round and said a second vote is needed?

*It is my understanding that these 3 countries have similar basic democratic principals to the U.K. but differ in detail to a certain extent.

Good question, in my short time the only referendum voting I can recall was with regard to Quebec staying or splitting from Canada as a nation. The vote was concluded to stay, and the separatist movement has become very quiet compared to those days. I am not sure if a rock-paper-scissors, best two out of three policy applies to these sorts of things.

As with any polarizing topic there will always be wringing of the hands and gnashing of the teeth on the part of the the losing camp. I just have no idea how these things actually work with regard to legal obligation to act based on the outcome of a referendum.

Personally I am a fan of the super majority approach, that being 55 or 60% or more of the vote being required for a significant change. The issue with the vote like this is it is literally divided at almost 50% (with a 70% voter turnout). It will leave scars no matter who won, and depending on what happens, might still leave more (i.e. how everything is decided to turn out, the initial vote to leave is the beginning of a long and potentially very painful process).

As mentioned by Sentryduty Canada doesn't do these types of referendums much (last one as mentioned was the Quebec separation vote in the 90s) and that was voted down so there was no hard choices that had to be made. The next one will likely be to change the voting system (if they choose to do a referendum, unfortunately legally they are not required to) so we will see what happens there as there might be more than one option on the ballot, and it will be hard to figure out a clear winner.

Congratulations to you on what some are calling an independence day for Great Britain.
It's curious to read some from Scotland or Ireland call for session(?) I suppose the rebels(?) would raise a militia and coastal navy for protecting their realm. We've seen exactly who is willing to fight when a NATO ally needs help with the Global War on Terror. Thanks for standing with US.
Perhaps we both can get out of the biggest money pit in the world located with NYC headquarters the epitome of corruption called the U.N.
We too will vote in 4 months and maybe a native New Yorker will make US Great again. :thup:

I think that the problem here with the E.U. vote is people trying to change the rules after the vote has taken place- it should have been sorted before the vote. The Remain camp were perfectly happy with the rules when they thought they were going to win the vote or at least I didn't hear any-one raise concerns.

There are no provisions for popular vote referendums at the federal level in US law.

Some States do conduct popular vote referendums. They are called “Propositions, initiatives, ballot measures,…” When one is voted into law it can be legally challenged and some do get overturned. I am not aware of a re-vote on one.

We call referendums here '.....the wisdom of the crowd theory'. And it has proved correct once again. At the end of all this, it should be SIR Nigel Farage.

He speaks a lot of sense...............little off the wall sometimes, like yesterday in the EU Parliament, but heyho he is what he is.
He always seemed to drive his campaign to get out of Europe with honesty, and many poor and elderly followed his lead. Sad that he shot himself in the foot over the distribution of the supposedly £350 Million for the NHS, when his main driving force was exactly that.
Even he wouldn't have been able to say if it was available or not until he was in power.

In that alone, I wish he had kept quiet IMHO.

`Nuff sed! Now´s the time to get on with it.

Was at the range yesterday (100m) with my No 5, this time (to mark BREXIT) without the scope, using the original sight. `Twas a great relief and (after shifting the front blade a tad) was just as accurate. A new age dawns ....

Unfortunately, we may yet get cheated out of the result if there is a second vote, as some would like, and it goes the other way. The question of a second vote cropped up again on the radio today on a listener phone in, BBC Radio 2's lunchtime programme with Jeremy Vine. There were a number of people who phoned in to say that they had voted Leave but would like a second chance to vote in a second Referendum Vote so that they could change the way they voted and vote Remain instead. One reason given by one of the persons phoning in was that they wanted the young people to have the U.K.'s relationship with Europe the way that young people in the U.K. wish it to be. In other words the rest of us would have to suffer the consequences for the rest of our lives and if that wasn't enough pay a ridiculous amount of money for the privilege.

In my opinion Nigel Farage deserves an Oscar for his performance in the European Parliament; I loved the the bit about "you're not laughing now".

But Gill..... One man, one vote referendums are a classic example of the wisdom of the crowd again! Or in this case, the wisdom of the crowd who got off their backsides and turned out to vote. Young or old, poor and elderly (?) doesn't even enter the equation........

The £350 million was a bit of a red herring in my opinion. The fact is that the remain side couldn't - or wouldn't - tell us what their figure was. Or certainly a figure that stood up to close scrutiny. And we can't ask Brussels....... because the accounts haven't been signed off by the auditors for 11 years!

A second referendum would make a mockery of the entire election process.

Don't like the result, scream 'foul' and force a do-over -- and then another, and another, and another . . .

If the Remain side get away with a second vote on the Referendum before you know it we will be having the same principles applied to the next general election. If I've got to remain within the E.U. for the rest of my life I'd rather emigrate and I'm not particularly bothered where provided it was well outside the E.U. and had no realistic chance of ever joining.

"What you mean Iceland could be beaten by a replay":lol::lol::eek::yikes:

I can't believe that the referendum stands any chance of being re-run, the people wouldn't stand for it, especially if it ended with a remain win. The silent majority smell EU liberal blood in the water and wouldn't want to be cheated. Now fudging of the freedom of movemant issue and backtracking on immigration over trade in the comming months and years I could see happening, but I think if genuine change isn't delivered by whoever we get running our country next there could be unrest in some quarters. It'll be interesting to see if we can stick with what we think we've won.

Thread 83 really made me laugh Gill....... Worth quoting every time the re-run question arises! Yep, still chuckling....

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

"What you mean Iceland could be beaten by a replay":lol::lol::eek::yikes:

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If the Referendum was rerun I think Remain would win and they know it; that it is why some of them are still pushing for it.

The thought crossed my mind just now that the USA is about to celebrate a holiday commemorating a not dissimilar event. It seems that the Americans got fed up with those in power many miles away who were governing the Americans were taxing them, passing laws that seemed oppressive or meddlesome for their own agenda. As memory serves, the Americans decided to unilaterally separate themselves from the ruling government.

Am I not mistaken? Isn't BREXIT effectively the same?

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Originally Posted by Paul S.

The thought crossed my mind just now that the USA is about to celebrate a holiday commemorating a not dissimilar event. It seems that the Americans got fed up with those in power many miles away who were governing the Americans were taxing them, passing laws that seemed oppressive or meddlesome for their own agenda. As memory serves, the Americans decided to unilaterally separate themselves from the ruling government.

Am I not mistaken? Isn't BREXIT effectively the same?

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Actually the BREXIT is much more democratic and justified. More or less the American Revolution was a small group of citizens who declared themselves a country WITHOUT asking the people around them if they wanted to or not (it was not like there was a vote to leave the UK). This is also why you see such a large migration of people like the United Empire Loyalists (and the severe lack of support after the initial rally, it took conscription, sums of money, and other forms of persuasion to convince them to fight for the Americas).

The American Revolutionaries weren't even concerned with the governance part, rather the taxation part (which the main reason they were being taxed was to pay for the war against the French in Quebec, which the Americans wanted, every other colony was also paying the tax so it isn't like they were being treated unfairly). My simple summary of the American Revolution was a group of rich, white, slave owning, males didn't want to pay their taxes. It also depends on who you read, those who actively seek to justify their actions, or those who look at it was a relatively impartial view.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Actually the BREXIT is much more democratic and justified. . . .

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by Eaglelord17

Actually the BREXIT is much more democratic and justified. More or less the American Revolution was a small group of citizens who declared themselves a country WITHOUT asking the people around them if they wanted to or not (it was not like there was a vote to leave the UK). This is also why you see such a large migration of people like the United Empire Loyalists (and the severe lack of support after the initial rally, it took conscription, sums of money, and other forms of persuasion to convince them to fight for the Americas).

The American Revolutionaries weren't even concerned with the governance part, rather the taxation part (which the main reason they were being taxed was to pay for the war against the French in Quebec, which the Americans wanted, every other colony was also paying the tax so it isn't like they were being treated unfairly). My simple summary of the American Revolution was a group of rich, white, slave owning, males didn't want to pay their taxes. It also depends on who you read, those who actively seek to justify their actions, or those who look at it was a relatively impartial view.

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A bit of over simplification and misunderstanding in your opinion, but ok.

Our U.S. Forum members wouldn't believe the amount of constant interference in numerous aspects of our daily lives that we have had to put up with in the U.K., over many years, from the E.U.. We can't vote the European Bureaucrats out of office where much of this originates from because they are not directly elected by us here in the U.K..

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Originally Posted by Flying10uk

Our U.S. Forum members wouldn't believe the amount of constant interference in numerous aspects of our daily lives that we have had to put up with in the U.K., over many years, from the E.U.. We can't vote the European Bureaucrats out of office where much of this originates from because they are not directly elected by us here in the U.K..

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Just the little I know about had me rooting for you guys. No one likes being treated as a child.
Many here "who pay attention" wish nothing but good will to the U.K, the rest of Europe,,,,,Meh.

My thanks to our moderators for allowing this discourse because as a American I don't fully understand the EU
What I know is on the BBC and in our news daily and affects our investments and savings
I've seen news about what seem to be huge financial loans (?) to Spain and Greece
It seems there is also a treaty involved that does not include common police and military support for the social and economic policy.

I don't want to offend anyone but most confusing is today's news about a Scottish politician speaking to another parliament (?)
Is this like a U.S. governor appealing to the UN. I don't get it and I will learn more as time permits
Mike

Mike,
When things like this happen there is serious change on a daily basis which you guys know about too, things we as mere mortals don't fully understand, with the deceit and wheeler dealing that goes on in the halls of power, however, I note the front runner Boris Johnson ex Lord Mayor of London, has dropped out as the knife went firmly into his back by his running colleague in the Get out of Europe campaign Mr Gove.
So not sure where we'll be when this Government decide who they want as the leader of their party or indeed who is to be the next British Prime Minister.
I probably have to put my money on Theresa May the Home Secretary, who controls everything security. She has held that office the longest in its history and in my view, has done a good job and she is a tough cooky, just what we need at the moment.

Whoever gets it, they need to put the Great back into Britain.
Having lived and worked in the Military in the south East of England all my life, I was saddened to see that Obama or Congress want to close so many American bases here in England. Four around where I live, including the major U.S. Transport hub at USAF/RAF Mildenhall.
Currently the home for refuellers and AWACs. Lakenheath is staying and the new fighter wings will be based there, but out of the two, Mildenhall has the longer runway and more facilities and easy access.
I did note though that when Air Force 1 came in recently he landed at Stansted Airport, perhaps he wanted lesser of a journey into London to see Her Majesty the Queen, he didn't fancy stopping off on base for a quick Bud.
Sorry to digress, but Molesworth the major Intelligence centre is going to.
Will Trump or Clinton whoever gets in, reverse the changes and cutbacks, or will world terror do that and everything will remain the same............hope so, got some good friends on most of the bases, and BBQ's and the steaks they bring from the PX just don't stack up next to our scrawny British ones:lol:

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Originally Posted by Gil Boyd

Whoever gets it, they need to put the Great back into Britain.

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Gil,

In 1980 "Make America Great Again" was a campaign slogan used by Ronald Reagan. At the time the US economy was in the toilet. Inflation and unemployment were both high and getting worse. On top of that 52 Americans had been held hostage by Iran since November ’97.

The hostages were released while Ronald Reagan was being sworn in to office as the 40th President of The United States and the economy recovered by the end of his second term. By most measures Ronald Reagan was true to his promise.

Now Donald Trump is using the "Make America Great Again" campaign slogan. He is a very controversial candidate. To many of my European acquaintances he personifies the term, “Ugly American.” For many of us here he is the only chance we have. His opponent would surely be a disaster.

If anyone is going to maintain bases in England, it would be Donald Trump. As you have seen in Benghazi, his opponent doesn’t value the lives of our own citizens and will lie to forward her own political career. How could anyone think she would value the lives of people in other countries?

Many of us here are encouraged by Britain’s vote to leave EU. From afar it seems like the first step in what is probably going to be a difficult journey. We are facing many of the same issues here. Hopefully both of our countries will elect leaders that will turn things around. We know it’s possible here. We have seen Ronald Reagan do it.

Vincent,
Well put. I was sent a fairly lengthy email on her recently by a good friend in Philly, and was quite alarmed to read what she had been up to and seemed to be immune.
I am sure there will be those who support her in lieu of Trump, but as you say if he can keep the bases here/Germany and Italy that will be one thing. Not sure about how long "we" want to keep a base in Turkey, but world issues dictate that one I suppose, and we have a substantial base (s) in Cyprus currently.

I watched 13 hours about the disaster in Tripoli and Benghazi, and really felt for the lads. Truly wish I had been there to stand alongside them during that.......hairy, but would have been a good one for an adrenalin junky like me, and it appeared to made more complicated by indecisive commands by a pen pusher/station chief, or did I get that wrong?

All Trump needs is a good team around him, from all aspects of his Government, but more importantly the Military. I just hope Theresa May if she does get our top job, can do the same here and reverse trends on spending cuts and also stop the EU trying to interfere in OUR gun laws, which believe you me, can't get much tougher before they break completely.
We need robust Border protection to stop the illegal weapons getting in!
Probably no different to the States.!?

Pretty much the most stupid idea to come out of the E.U. has to be the idea of a European Army. Have the bureaucrats who thought this one up ever thought of the difficulties in getting all 28 member states to agree if and where the Army would be deployed to?

Gil,

The account by the Benghazi Chief of Base is in the report. It differs substantially from the movie. His leadership skills are not at issue here. We have a candidate for President who lied to the American people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8INIH0JfNA8

It was not a protest or some guys who were out for a walk. She was responsible for the security of our men. She failed them and then lied to cover it up.

........................and she has got this far???