effect on value question on 1903a3?

Hello, New guy here with first question to milsurps.com..

I recently acquired a real nice Remington 1903-A3 from a local shop. So a buddy of mine who is a lot more knowledgeable on the WW1/2 rifles than I look it over. He goes on talking how I should change the incorrect parts to correct parts.
Prior to buying I did study up on stamped vs milled parts, stocks, barrels, butt plates etc.

Now rifle in question has had a arsenal rebuild.

My question would making the rifle correct to pre-arsenal rebuild effect the value. It has some cartouche stamps to show it has had a arsenal rebuild.
Mine has a 1903 trigger/mag plate assembly on it currently. Is it worth it to switch to a correct Remington trigger/mag assembly.

Yes having a 100% correct from the create rifle would be great, But then to me takes away from the nostalgic heritage of the rifle. Honestly I am torn between making it all correct small ocd issue or leave it as is.

Once I get the camera figured out, I will post some pics of the rifle with more questions.

Thank you for the input,
Snert..

I hate to sound like I'm "fence-sitting" but it sort of depends:

1) If you're missing one part, I don't see a problem - I don't know if it'll affect the value one way or the other.

2) If the rifle has been totally rebuilt and refinished, I think it a waste of time

3) My "rule of thumb" for M1903s (not M1903A3s) is if the rifle is missing the fixed rear sight base and/or the front sight and has been drilled and tapped, it is not worth the effort and expense.

This one seems pretty complete and not drilled, 100% the way it was made. Well with the exception of a few swapped parts mainly the trigger guard. On the front sight the band/base is marked R while the pinned in blade has a C stamped in it. I will try to post pictures this weekend and you guys could give it the once over.
plus there is a cartouche I am curious about on the stock.

Pictures would really help. Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Snert

100% the way it was made. Well with the exception of a few swapped parts

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Yes, pics when you can...

If it has the arsenal stamps in the wood leave as is, still a great rifle with history. In order of collectibility and value it goes like this
1) original/correct
2) arsenal rebuild
3) refinished or restored
4) bubbafied/sporter

If it has the rebuild stamps in the stock I see no point correcting it, unless your going to find another stock

So I took a bunch of pictures to post, BUT having a issue with a photo host. I know this is off topic but who do you recommend? Looking for least pop-ups and simple to use with forum size upload option.
I tried tinypic and it is super slow to just get from one step to the next. I hear photobucket is horrible now too with ads/pop-ups.

PM me and we can talk, I'll send you an Email address and you mail them to me so I can post them for you.

Jim, Let my try first if no success then I will take you up on your offer.

Here we go..

few more pictures.

It reads like a book. Nice clean example.

Snert, Nice rifle. Although I like the milled trigger guards, I think I would replace it with an 03a3 guard. (just my opinion) They don't cost much and the rifle would be more original. The 03 milled guards are getting to be valuable so don' trade it straight across.

Reason for the value question is I was considering changing out the floor plate. I am fine with the milled, but being a arsenal rebuild figured it does not matter. SO was thinking of getting a stamped "R" trigger guard/floor plate.

Now with the rifle in general I have a few questions, so please educate me on this rifle.
1- Underside, behind the trigger there is a "R" stamp. Does this indicate Remington stock, I always thought they stamped on the front flat below barrel on the stock/forearm.
2- on the bolt handle underside, there is the "R" with a punch mark, but on the other side of the handle there is a "C" . What does the "C" indicate Smith Corona?
3- Front sight mount is stamped "R" and the blade is stamped "C" again is this Smith Corona ?
4- Sling, I can get better pics if needed but I see a few stampings, 1918 and some initials. On the end by brass there is JJOL and a very faint 1918. Will this be a original USGI issue sling or a aftermarket. Condition seem to fit the age, But I see some folks say leather is correct, others say webbed is correct.

Now I picked this up from my local FFL and do not have any intentions of selling at this time. But with what you see what would you say a fair value is on the rifle? I did purchase a OE cleaning kit and it is in the stock as well, it is the plastic, not nickel kit.
Bore is very clean and bright, good amount of rifling left and appears to be a 4 groove.

Thank you in advance,
Snert

Hallo Snert!

Please do not take what follows as a personal criticism. It is not meant to be so. What it is meant to be is a considered critique of a way of thinking that infests the milsurp community. The "correctomania" that leads through falsification to downright faking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

Hello, New guy here with first question to milsurps.com..
I recently acquired a real nice Remington 1903-A3 from a local shop. So a buddy of mine who is a lot more knowledgeable on the WW1/2 rifles than I look it over. He goes on talking how I should change the incorrect parts to correct parts...

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Should? Why should? What makes the present parts incorrect - and whatever is incorrect supposed to mean?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

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Now rifle in question has had a arsenal rebuild...

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So whatever was done in the course of the rebuild was correct in the eyes of the arsenal at that time. Or is it to be assumed that RIA etc were falsifying or faking rifles?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

My question would making the rifle correct to pre-arsenal rebuild effect the value...

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Here we go down the slippery slope to faking. The lure is not a genuine desire for an imagined "correctness", but rather an increase in value in a market where genuine history goes out of the window.

Since the rifle was undeniably rebuilt, as indicated by the stamps on the stock, retrospectively altering it to an imagined pre-rebuild "correct" configuration is FALSIFICATION.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

Yes having a 100% correct from the create rifle would be great, But then to me takes away from the nostalgic heritage of the rifle...

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Now you are getting there! Falsifying the rifle to simulate its presumed ex-factory condition (which will always conflict with the rebuild mark) is destroying its history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

Honestly I am torn between making it all correct small ocd issue or leave it as is...

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Glad to hear it! You have a fine example of a real rifle that went "through the mill", not an assemblage of parts bought and put together to create an imaginary original.

If you are truly:
1) concerned about the history of old artefacts,
2) not wanting to fake something to make it more valuable in a misguided market,

then LEAVE IT AS IT IS

Please!

I would leave it as is and only move the bottom metal to another rifle that comes to you in need of the milled guard. Everything looks to have been together for some time and stamped guards are not difficult to locate.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Snert

Reason for the value question is I was considering changing out the floor plate. I am fine with the milled, but being a arsenal rebuild figured it does not matter. SO was thinking of getting a stamped "R" trigger guard/floor plate.

Now with the rifle in general I have a few questions, so please educate me on this rifle.
1- Underside, behind the trigger there is a "R" stamp. Does this indicate Remington stock, I always thought they stamped on the front flat below barrel on the stock/forearm.
2- on the bolt handle underside, there is the "R" with a punch mark, but on the other side of the handle there is a "C" . What does the "C" indicate Smith Corona?
3- Front sight mount is stamped "R" and the blade is stamped "C" again is this Smith Corona ?
4- Sling, I can get better pics if needed but I see a few stampings, 1918 and some initials. On the end by brass there is JJOL and a very faint 1918. Will this be a original USGI issue sling or a aftermarket. Condition seem to fit the age, But I see some folks say leather is correct, others say webbed is correct.

Now I picked this up from my local FFL and do not have any intentions of selling at this time. But with what you see what would you say a fair value is on the rifle? I did purchase a OE cleaning kit and it is in the stock as well, it is the plastic, not nickel kit.
Bore is very clean and bright, good amount of rifling left and appears to be a 4 groove.

Thank you in advance,
Snert

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Snert
Answers for your above questions.

1) That R is a some type inspection stamp. Remington marked their stock else where.

2) Your bolt is a Remington 03A3 bolt. The C is again another inspection stamp, what for, don't know.

3) The C on the blade sight designates the height of that blade is, for the 03 rifles there are something like 5 different Blade heights mark A to E I believe.

4) the sling sure does look a original 1907, The 1903A3 rifles did not come with slings from the factory but were issued at the unit level. Yes leather sling were still being issue during WWII.

Look like you have a nice looking rifle with many Remington parts on it. I would not change any parts unless the part is worn or is a reproduction part. As for the swapping the trigger guard, many individual prefer the milled trigger guard because they don't dig into the stock when tighten like the stamp guards do. The subject swapping parts on these rifle can be a hornet nest depending on who you are conversing with. Your not going to increase value of the rifle by changing out parts because it been rebuilt at least once. As other have put it, the rifle is factory original once, and after it been rebuilt it no longer original collecting wise. It's up to you if you want spend the extra money to make your rifle authentic, it's your rifle but hang on that milled trigger guard. The Prices for these rifles very depending where you are, condition, how much in demand they are at the time of sale. It could be from $600 to $900 for average cost depending on condition. Pristine will go a bit more.

I have several 03 & 03A3 and enjoy shooting all them. the only problem is once you get one, you'll want more.

Owen

Well guys here is what I think I am going to do...I'm not going to change a thing! I will however pick up a Remington 03-a3 trigger/floor plate and just put it on the shelf to just have.

The more I look and read I feel it is worth keeping as it came to me, hopefully in 100% arsenal rebuild condition. As mentioned by others, to make it correct would be a lie, and the cartouche stamps tell the story.

Onward to find what to use to preserve the sling ...

Thanks again guys!

Very nice A-3. Just an opinion. I might change to an R marked part if and only if the finish matched perfectly. And like you the decision would be driven by OCD. The rifle appears to be a nice example of an OG rebuild.

Anyone have a good product recommendation for preserving the sling? as you can see it has some cracking and dry spots. I want to keep the sling with the rifle, but do not need it to rip apart by the cracks.

I will not be slinging the rifle over my shoulder, and shooting it will be from a bench rest. I prefer to leave the sling on the rifle , it completes the look of a issue rifle.

My extent of leather preservation is in cars, with over the counter auto detail products. I do not think it to be wise to use them on this sling.

Over the years here you find Pecard's and Lanolin recommended. Both groups will fight the other for domination and have a hundred reasons. You want to restore supple movement and preserve without altering... I've used many things, all products for oiling and waterproofing leather and none have damaged or degraded my slings.

+1 on anhydrous lanolin. Amazon has it.

I can't say I've used Lanolin, not sure I'd use the right thing then. I did once try vegetable oil after being assured it was perfect...that was many years ago and just believe me, don't do that.

Snert,proof
I have uses Neatsfoot oil and seems to a good job at returning pliability to the leather and waterproof it. Do read up and understand how it affect the leather before you use it. It's been used on leather products for over hundred years. But do stay away any product that is a compound or called a compound because my research show compounds products will deteriorate the leather faster in the long run. Preserving leather is always a tough fight with moisture, But leather will last only so long. Your sling looks like it can be brought back through. As long none of the cracking don't turn in tearing you should OK. I'm by no means a leather expert, but do your research and understand any product you use and any negative effects.
Owen

All good advise and yes, I agree the sling can be rejuvenated for display purpose.

The sling is not stiff , it is very pliable/flexible. It has a few cracks near the adjustment holes and some finish wear. I am mainly looking to preserve it for the long term. So I am not sure if a leather protectant or a preservative type of product would be best.
Basically looking to keep it looking just the way it currently is, and help prevent it from getting any worse.

That's what we're talking about too. You need something to make it supple and restore life to the leather. It's not supposed to be dry.

Here a product from a company BAR has suggested, I never used it but seems to be what you need. here the link to it. Antique Leather Dressing Pecard Leather Care
Owen

The "OG" on the stock indicates the rifle went through Ogden Arsenal. This would be for "inspection" and overhaul as necessary. Does not look like to much needed to be done on that rifle. The only thing that makes me wonder is if it was the Arsenal that installed that milled trigger guard and floor plate. I am not sure about 03's but with M1 rifles the latest available parts would be used in overhauls or rebuilds. It is possible that a prior owner, just liking the milled trigger group better, installed it. If someone more knowledgeable than me, in regards to arsenal overhauls, knows that these trigger guards were used in overhauls/rebuilds I would leave the rifle as is, otherwise I might change that early trigger group for the stamped Remington group. You asked what it's value would be. As I didn't see any answers I would think it would bring around $ 700.00.

More likely a previous owner installed the earlier parts. They may have liked the looks of the milled trigger guard.

I don't think the rifle is a rebuild. I would change out the trigger guard and I would value the rifle at 800+ in today's market. Experts, correct me if I'm wrong. From what I recall the boxed OG indicates a rebuild.